⛓️‍💥 How to *Actually* Break Up with Your Phone - with Shannon Algeo

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:00:00.391):
Alright, official welcome to our The Power In Your Hands book club.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:00:06.134):
I'm so excited today to be joined by the author, Shannon Algeo.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:00:10.796):
Shannon, I'm so thrilled to have you with us.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:00:13.577):
Thank you for being here.

Shannon Algeo (00:00:14.638):
Oh my gosh, thank you.

Shannon Algeo (00:00:16.819):
I will keep finding excuses to talk to Amelia Hruby,

Shannon Algeo (00:00:21.681):
so I'm just grateful for this continued game and pleasure of connection that we're

Shannon Algeo (00:00:27.484):
getting to experience together.

Shannon Algeo (00:00:28.785):
Thank you for having me.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:00:30.078):
Yeah, me too.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:00:31.159):
I'm loving doing book clubs as new books come out.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:00:34.521):
It's just such a fun opportunity to talk to you for the podcast,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:00:37.424):
but then get interactive with listeners and readers as well.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:00:41.758):
So one of the things I love about your book is that it really feels like part

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:00:47.302):
research nonfiction,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:00:48.823):
part memoir self-help personal development,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:00:52.186):
and part poetry And you've included all of these poems that you've written

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:00:56.089):
throughout the book So I was wondering if you might open us up by reading the poem

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:01:01.072):
that you opened the book with,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:01:02.093):
which is called Reaching for the Phone I Left at Home on Purpose Could you read

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:01:07.097):
that for us?

Shannon Algeo (00:01:07.965):
Yeah, totally.

Shannon Algeo (00:01:09.729):
Yeah,

Shannon Algeo (00:01:10.030):
and thank you for that reflection about the research,

Shannon Algeo (00:01:13.639):
the personal anecdote,

Shannon Algeo (00:01:15.082):
and the poetry,

Shannon Algeo (00:01:15.824):
because I...

Shannon Algeo (00:01:18.161):
I wanted I did not want to write a book where readers felt like I was some expert

Shannon Algeo (00:01:25.705):
bestowing research upon them and that I don't have these issues and I'm not

Shannon Algeo (00:01:31.689):
struggling with my phone so yeah it felt very important to me to include my own

Shannon Algeo (00:01:37.012):
personal attachment and process with this because it's relatable we're all going

Shannon Algeo (00:01:41.775):
through this together

Shannon Algeo (00:01:43.983):
as we navigate what researchers and journalists refer to the societal addiction of our time.

Shannon Algeo (00:01:50.547):
So yeah,

Shannon Algeo (00:01:51.548):
so just something about this poem that I'll share with everyone here that's a sweet

Shannon Algeo (00:01:56.732):
little bit of context.

Shannon Algeo (00:01:57.772):
So during the pandemic, I would go on these walks without my phone.

Shannon Algeo (00:02:02.615):
And it was a walk from my house about 20 minutes away to this cafe in Topanga

Shannon Algeo (00:02:08.079):
Canyon where I was living for three years.

Shannon Algeo (00:02:12.014):
And so it was about,

Shannon Algeo (00:02:13.455):
it was always a minimum of an hour,

Shannon Algeo (00:02:15.276):
sometimes an hour and a half,

Shannon Algeo (00:02:16.417):
because I would walk 20 minutes to the cafe,

Shannon Algeo (00:02:18.739):
sit and journal and do my thing and then walk 20 minutes back.

Shannon Algeo (00:02:23.562):
And on this one day, I walked to the cafe.

Shannon Algeo (00:02:27.704):
I arrive, I order my decaf Americano.

Shannon Algeo (00:02:30.706):
I was drinking decaf at the time.

Shannon Algeo (00:02:32.007):
It's a caffeinated moment of my life right now.

Shannon Algeo (00:02:35.850):
And

Shannon Algeo (00:02:37.655):
And I sat down,

Shannon Algeo (00:02:39.095):
opened my journal,

Shannon Algeo (00:02:40.456):
got out my pen And then my hand grabbed for my pants to grab my phone And in that

Shannon Algeo (00:02:50.058):
moment,

Shannon Algeo (00:02:52.419):
I felt something I had a visceral feeling And I'm gonna just read the poem because

Shannon Algeo (00:02:58.300):
it will tell you And this poem flowed out as is Never changed a word And this is

Shannon Algeo (00:03:05.482):
what came out

Shannon Algeo (00:03:07.169):
So,

Shannon Algeo (00:03:08.470):
reaching for the phone I left at home on purpose Liberation from the digital cell A

Shannon Algeo (00:03:14.974):
prison of colorful,

Shannon Algeo (00:03:16.996):
careful,

Shannon Algeo (00:03:18.097):
calculated design I freed myself The cell keys were in my hand the whole time

Shannon Algeo (00:03:27.360):
but that phone sticks to my palm like Christmas coins cling to the white-taped

Shannon Algeo (00:03:33.842):
hands of the sticky bandits in Home Alone 2,

Shannon Algeo (00:03:38.203):
lost in New York.

Shannon Algeo (00:03:41.764):
Who knew hitting the lottery would steal my soul and distract me from millions of

Shannon Algeo (00:03:47.545):
moments of presence and purpose and peace?

Shannon Algeo (00:03:52.266):
It's difficult to mourn the unlived life.

Shannon Algeo (00:03:56.543):
Who would I be without this weapon of mass distraction?

Shannon Algeo (00:04:00.325):
Who would I become?

Shannon Algeo (00:04:03.826):
Would I be a comedian writing jokes and receiving belly laughs instead of cheap likes?

Shannon Algeo (00:04:10.889):
Would I be a sensuous lover meeting men in parks and bars and restaurants instead

Shannon Algeo (00:04:17.092):
of scrolling for the man I'll never find?

Shannon Algeo (00:04:20.974):
Would I be deeply steeped in writing a novel?

Shannon Algeo (00:04:24.663):
immersed in a world of my mind's own design,

Shannon Algeo (00:04:28.546):
instead of torn apart in thousands of fragmented pieces of cat vids and TikToks and

Shannon Algeo (00:04:34.331):
influencers and trauma porn.

Shannon Algeo (00:04:37.934):
Who profits from the grand theft of my soul, this macrochip I carry with me where'er I go?

Shannon Algeo (00:04:46.661):
How do I find the lost one I might have become?

Shannon Algeo (00:04:51.245):
Do I still have a chance to break him free?

Shannon Algeo (00:04:54.738):
and embrace his becoming.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:05:03.662):
Thank you for reading that for us.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:05:06.084):
And thanks to everyone, heart reacting.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:05:08.085):
I really love this closing question,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:05:11.846):
which I would just move for myself into first person,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:05:14.308):
like,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:05:14.568):
do I still have a chance to break free and embrace my becoming?

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:05:19.458):
I think speaks to reaching for your phone,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:05:23.481):
but also to,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:05:24.461):
you know,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:05:25.182):
all of us are caught in cycles of systemic oppression and that we want and need to

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:05:31.726):
be liberated from.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:05:33.007):
And I think it's a question I'm asking myself more and more.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:05:35.869):
Do I have a chance to break free to embrace my becoming?

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:05:41.632):
Something I love about the book,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:05:43.853):
the way you open with this poem,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:05:45.733):
and then the first line of the prologue after that,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:05:48.514):
right,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:05:49.054):
is,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:05:49.974):
hello,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:05:50.354):
my name is Shannon,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:05:51.314):
and I am completely addicted to my smartphone.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:05:54.515):
I love the honesty of this.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:05:57.355):
I feel similarly,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:05:58.316):
even as someone who has not been on social media in five years,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:06:01.216):
like,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:06:01.456):
my phone is right here,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:06:03.317):
and I still pick it up,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:06:04.417):
you know,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:06:05.537):
dozens,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:06:06.097):
if not hundreds of times a day.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:06:07.718):
And

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:06:10.373):
Yeah, yeah.

Shannon Algeo (00:06:31.662):
Yeah,

Shannon Algeo (00:06:32.222):
well,

Shannon Algeo (00:06:33.182):
and just to speak for a moment to that poem and the grief,

Shannon Algeo (00:06:38.804):
the grief,

Shannon Algeo (00:06:40.424):
the mourning for the unlived life,

Shannon Algeo (00:06:44.505):
there's just such motivation in that question of do I still have a chance to break

Shannon Algeo (00:06:48.506):
free and embrace my becoming?

Shannon Algeo (00:06:50.046):
Because if we're breathing, Ocean Vuong talks about a life worthy of our breath.

Shannon Algeo (00:06:56.667):
And so if we're here, we still have a chance to break free and embrace our becoming.

Shannon Algeo (00:07:01.010):
So what a rich opportunity to acknowledge the grief.

Shannon Algeo (00:07:04.793):
And yeah,

Shannon Algeo (00:07:05.294):
thank you for that question because this is such an ongoing relationship with

Shannon Algeo (00:07:12.520):
technology.

Shannon Algeo (00:07:13.080):
How do I be in right relationship with technology?

Shannon Algeo (00:07:15.942):
For me, so I've been using the Light Phone 3 since November.

Shannon Algeo (00:07:23.162):
and there's a chapter in the book called Guardians and Protectors about creating

Shannon Algeo (00:07:27.324):
really like firm friction and boundaries with technology to protect our creative

Shannon Algeo (00:07:32.267):
capacity and to protect our presence and our attention.

Shannon Algeo (00:07:38.650):
And for me, when I wrote the book, I was in Europe while I wrote most of the book.

Shannon Algeo (00:07:45.213):
That was one way I was trying to break free and embrace my becoming was just kind of

Shannon Algeo (00:07:50.650):
gracefully exiting the United States of America.

Shannon Algeo (00:07:57.132):
And I had my smartphone during that time,

Shannon Algeo (00:08:00.193):
I had my iPhone,

Shannon Algeo (00:08:01.253):
and to some degree it was needed for me to navigate being in a foreign country.

Shannon Algeo (00:08:08.136):
but I had app blockers installed on stripped block setting which meant I couldn't

Shannon Algeo (00:08:13.879):
undo them in a compulsive moment of wanting to just check the app anyway I couldn't

Shannon Algeo (00:08:18.721):
click undo or cancel

Shannon Algeo (00:08:21.207):
so the app one sec some people use brick I know there's a number of different apps

Shannon Algeo (00:08:26.348):
that helped me while I was using my iPhone to have these strict blocks but then on

Shannon Algeo (00:08:30.709):
top of that I also went through these rituals of turning my phone off for my

Shannon Algeo (00:08:35.650):
creative period each day that I was creating my phone was off for anywhere from

Shannon Algeo (00:08:40.391):
three hours to sometimes like six seven or eight hours and in November I turned I

Shannon Algeo (00:08:47.272):
turned 39

Shannon Algeo (00:08:49.358):
And I was like,

Shannon Algeo (00:08:51.059):
oh fuck If I don't make some changes,

Shannon Algeo (00:08:54.200):
this book is going to come out and I'm going to be a fraud I'm going to be living

Shannon Algeo (00:08:58.542):
the addiction and talking about this but not living the embodiment of what I've

Shannon Algeo (00:09:04.024):
learned And this is where this book has just continually pushed me to my edges and

Shannon Algeo (00:09:10.786):
saved me in many ways Because by writing the book,

Shannon Algeo (00:09:14.367):
I had to practice

Shannon Algeo (00:09:17.242):
And now by launching the book and releasing it to the world,

Shannon Algeo (00:09:21.585):
I feel this collective accountability To be totally honest,

Shannon Algeo (00:09:26.128):
while I am on my light phone,

Shannon Algeo (00:09:28.430):
I am incredibly addicted to my laptop around this book release However,

Shannon Algeo (00:09:34.334):
I am doing really intentional things on my laptop

Shannon Algeo (00:09:38.998):
And while I still struggle with like multiple tabs and browsers and just like all

Shannon Algeo (00:09:43.721):
the to-dos and tasks I still feel I'm not in my ideal relationship with technology

Shannon Algeo (00:09:50.945):
right now because this is sort of a big release moment that's asking a lot of me

Shannon Algeo (00:09:55.367):
But I'm not like doom scrolling and numbing out I'm actively participating in being

Shannon Algeo (00:10:01.251):
a steward of this moment of showing up in service of this book and the people who

Shannon Algeo (00:10:06.433):
might benefit from it

Shannon Algeo (00:10:08.178):
so that might sound like a highbrow excuse for some of my tech time but I am not

Shannon Algeo (00:10:16.285):
scrolling on my iPhone and I do have an iPhone full transparency I do turn it on

Shannon Algeo (00:10:22.951):
and I connect it to Wi-Fi like an iPad but it is in that box under my altar okay I

(00:10:31.618):
see it

Shannon Algeo (00:10:32.832):
it is face down turned off in that box and I only turn it on once a day and I have

Shannon Algeo (00:10:40.576):
something intentional to do on it when I turn it on and I watch myself get into

Shannon Algeo (00:10:45.999):
little moments of scrolling after but it's a major harm reduction method because

Shannon Algeo (00:10:54.243):
it's like

Shannon Algeo (00:10:57.075):
an hour or less of that.

Shannon Algeo (00:10:59.756):
And I would like to not get in.

Shannon Algeo (00:11:03.258):
I really would love to go post what I want to post and then get back out.

Shannon Algeo (00:11:12.083):
But it is interesting because I'm putting out more material now online and I do

Shannon Algeo (00:11:18.967):
feel that vulnerability of my attachment system that wants to be seen and wants to

Shannon Algeo (00:11:24.270):
feel soothed because people like me and

Shannon Algeo (00:11:27.835):
Yeah, posting and ghosting.

Shannon Algeo (00:11:29.256):
Yes, Mel.

Shannon Algeo (00:11:31.278):
Love that reflection.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:11:33.700):
I appreciate so much of what you just shared,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:11:35.802):
Shannon,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:11:36.142):
and I think there's so many important pieces to it.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:11:39.184):
What's coming up for me is that,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:11:41.606):
you know,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:11:41.806):
your core question,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:11:42.747):
which you just said here,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:11:43.648):
but it's also in the book,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:11:44.789):
is like,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:11:45.349):
what is my right relationship to technology?

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:11:49.192):
The question is not, how do I throw my phone into the ocean and never have a phone again?

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:11:53.916):
The question is not, how do I

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:11:56.637):
you know never look at my laptop it's not like how do I live a totally offline life

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:12:00.980):
maybe that's some people's question but it's not the question we're grappling with

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:12:03.782):
here the question is what is my right relationship to technology and then your

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:12:09.446):
answers are like building in rituals carving out space for presence without you

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:12:15.371):
know virtual connection without the pull of the phone and I also think that what

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:12:20.975):
your answer showed like I could see you're grappling with this but I think it was

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:12:24.698):
just a really

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:12:26.420):
And I'll see you next time

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:12:41.987):
But other times we actually can embrace the beauty of the internet and connective

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:12:47.335):
technologies,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:12:48.096):
right?

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:12:48.397):
A book launch is a great moment to be very online, right?

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:12:53.545):
Part of what you want for this book is to be visible, is for people to read it

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:12:58.210):
and at the same time you can notice like oh okay well doing these things feels good

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:13:02.731):
doing these things does not like I can be online in service of my book without just

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:13:08.413):
scrolling that feels different so I just think there's a lot of layers of nuance to

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:13:13.654):
that right relationship and the way that you are creating it and just like always

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:13:19.196):
checking in with like is this how I want to be spending my time right now

Shannon Algeo (00:13:23.844):
Yes, yes.

Shannon Algeo (00:13:25.645):
Yeah,

Shannon Algeo (00:13:25.885):
and this is something that really comes up as I'm talking about the book more

Shannon Algeo (00:13:30.707):
publicly and in rooms of people around this release is,

Shannon Algeo (00:13:37.229):
and I talk about this in the book as well,

Shannon Algeo (00:13:39.770):
that unlike alcohol or some substance use addictions,

Shannon Algeo (00:13:45.855):
Technology is closer to a food addiction or what some of my friends who are in

Shannon Algeo (00:13:52.957):
Overeaters Anonymous 12-step program meetings talk about,

Shannon Algeo (00:13:56.618):
that you can't just give up food like you can give up alcohol.

Shannon Algeo (00:14:00.239):
You can survive without alcohol, but you can't survive without food.

Shannon Algeo (00:14:04.760):
And so you need to learn in relationship with other people and with support and

Shannon Algeo (00:14:09.422):
with community,

Shannon Algeo (00:14:10.882):
the practices of being in right relationship with food.

Shannon Algeo (00:14:15.274):
and I think technology in this time that we live in is closer to that.

Shannon Algeo (00:14:21.560):
Yes, it is possible for a human being to survive without technology.

Shannon Algeo (00:14:27.927):
However, it's a really complicated question depending on what our work is and

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:14:36.055):
Yeah,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:14:36.555):
or if you want to go to a restaurant and see the menu,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:14:40.498):
if you want to go to a show,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:14:42.359):
like there is this point where cell phones have become so pervasive,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:14:46.862):
you know,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:14:47.722):
they've replaced paper in many instances,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:14:49.624):
right?

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:14:49.824):
It's like if you want to be a person in society,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:14:52.986):
there is a way that you have to engage technology.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:14:55.307):
I would definitely agree.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:14:56.308):
Exactly.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:14:57.529):
Exactly.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:14:58.758):
So the next question I have for you is,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:15:01.140):
it's probably one of my favorite things about your book and like why you wrote it,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:15:04.062):
which is that I,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:15:07.464):
you know,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:15:07.704):
I've seen a lot of people talk about social media or technology addiction from the

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:15:11.767):
addiction lens.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:15:13.628):
But what I like about your book is you draw that into attachment.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:15:17.531):
And it's because I think I like this because I never felt addicted to my phone.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:15:22.054):
I'm not someone who's been a part of a 12-step program.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:15:24.595):
the framework of addiction doesn't always land for me but the framework of

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:15:28.480):
attachment felt so true and so real immediately and I'm very on record saying I'm

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:15:35.248):
like anxiously attached to my phone I used to be anxiously attached to social media

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:15:39.937):
So could you talk a little bit about how you figured out that your phone was a part

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:15:46.382):
of your,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:15:47.323):
was like triggering some of your attachment wounds,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:15:50.225):
perhaps,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:15:50.606):
if we want to use that word?

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:15:51.526):
Or could you explain how you think about the relationship between phones or social

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:15:55.369):
media and attachment?

Shannon Algeo (00:15:57.011):
Yeah.

Shannon Algeo (00:15:58.091):
Yeah.

Shannon Algeo (00:15:58.452):
And, you know, addiction is such a loaded word.

Shannon Algeo (00:16:00.814):
And in the book, I spell out like, am I in an addictive relationship with my phone?

Shannon Algeo (00:16:07.405):
Step one of 12-step programs is I acknowledge that I have a problem and my life has

Shannon Algeo (00:16:13.327):
become,

Shannon Algeo (00:16:13.747):
I've become powerless and unmanageable in relationship to this problem.

Shannon Algeo (00:16:19.148):
And I ask that, I'm like, am I powerless?

Shannon Algeo (00:16:21.669):
Has my life become unmanageable?

Shannon Algeo (00:16:24.330):
Is that what's happening here?

Shannon Algeo (00:16:25.530):
And then I'm like,

Shannon Algeo (00:16:26.110):
wait,

Shannon Algeo (00:16:26.330):
well,

Shannon Algeo (00:16:26.510):
sometimes actually,

Shannon Algeo (00:16:27.370):
yeah,

Shannon Algeo (00:16:28.451):
I do feel powerless and it does feel,

Shannon Algeo (00:16:30.571):
some aspects of this do feel unmanageable.

Shannon Algeo (00:16:34.867):
I love Nikki Meyer's definition of addiction.

Shannon Algeo (00:16:38.750):
Nikki is an incredible woman,

Shannon Algeo (00:16:41.652):
great-grandmother,

Shannon Algeo (00:16:42.973):
recovering alcoholic and substance user,

Shannon Algeo (00:16:47.556):
and she just talks about her recovery journey with such pride and really owns all

Shannon Algeo (00:16:52.680):
the parts of herself that struggled with addiction.

Shannon Algeo (00:16:56.983):
And she defines addiction as the disease of the lost self.

Shannon Algeo (00:17:01.423):
And anytime I reach outside of myself,

Shannon Algeo (00:17:04.086):
Nikki says,

Shannon Algeo (00:17:05.727):
for something that can only be sourced on the inside,

Shannon Algeo (00:17:10.031):
I'm in an addictive relationship with whatever that thing is.

Shannon Algeo (00:17:15.056):
So reaching outside of the self,

Shannon Algeo (00:17:16.857):
that sort of like invited me into this like disease of the lost self.

Shannon Algeo (00:17:23.017):
That really resonated with me when I think about the fragmentation that I feel,

Shannon Algeo (00:17:27.658):
the scatteredness that I feel after spending so much time engaging with fragmented

Shannon Algeo (00:17:32.640):
information online,

Shannon Algeo (00:17:34.700):
scrolling,

Shannon Algeo (00:17:35.161):
tapping glass instead of touching grass.

Shannon Algeo (00:17:40.565):
then when I was in grad school and studying attachment and studying substance use

Shannon Algeo (00:17:45.389):
disorders I came across this article by Philip Flores the psychologist who defines

Shannon Algeo (00:17:51.534):
all addictions as attachment related disorders and I like to just say what does

Shannon Algeo (00:17:56.938):
disorder mean?

Shannon Algeo (00:17:58.139):
Disorder doesn't mean there's anything wrong with us but it means that we're

Shannon Algeo (00:18:01.122):
suffering it means that there's a struggle that is happening and so if all

Shannon Algeo (00:18:07.507):
addictions

Shannon Algeo (00:18:09.408):
are misguided attempts at replacing a whole,

Shannon Algeo (00:18:16.215):
H-O-L-E,

Shannon Algeo (00:18:17.096):
in the center of the self by reaching outside of the self in order to feel whole,

Shannon Algeo (00:18:24.063):
W-H-O-L-E.

Shannon Algeo (00:18:26.305):
Then I can look at my relationship to technology and the attachment roots here.

Shannon Algeo (00:18:31.230):
So...

Shannon Algeo (00:18:33.252):
What is attachment?

Shannon Algeo (00:18:34.592):
Attachment is this biological,

Shannon Algeo (00:18:37.333):
and I say this on the podcast,

Shannon Algeo (00:18:40.234):
I'll say it again here because it's just really helpful to ground into this

Shannon Algeo (00:18:44.456):
biological and social evolutionary response of the human being starting as early as

Shannon Algeo (00:18:51.338):
infancy to attach to our primary caregivers in order to make sure that we feel

Shannon Algeo (00:18:56.700):
secure

Shannon Algeo (00:18:58.292):
seen, soothed, safe, and secure.

Shannon Algeo (00:19:01.818):
So we are a wildly social species and when we're developing as children we learn

Shannon Algeo (00:19:09.289):
secure attachment or insecure attachment through

Shannon Algeo (00:19:14.010):
internalizing the care of our caregivers.

Shannon Algeo (00:19:17.892):
So if my caregiver shows up enough at the time,

Shannon Algeo (00:19:22.195):
if it's good enough,

Shannon Algeo (00:19:23.716):
and they are seeing me and soothing me and helping me to feel safe when I feel

Shannon Algeo (00:19:27.558):
distressed as a child,

Shannon Algeo (00:19:29.679):
I will learn,

Shannon Algeo (00:19:30.459):
I'll develop this internal capacity for self-regulation and co-regulation,

Shannon Algeo (00:19:37.563):
internal resiliency and interpersonal resiliency.

Shannon Algeo (00:19:42.735):
because attachment is a dynamic, it's relational, but then it gets experienced inside of us.

Shannon Algeo (00:19:51.339):
It's something we can feel.

Shannon Algeo (00:19:53.980):
So I started to wonder, wait, I'm reaching for my phone.

Shannon Algeo (00:20:00.582):
Some research shows that smartphone users reach for their phones up to 250 times a

Shannon Algeo (00:20:03.744):
day to unlock.

Shannon Algeo (00:20:08.692):
that our average smartphone user is spending the equivalent of 61 to 80 days per

Shannon Algeo (00:20:12.854):
year on their phone,

Shannon Algeo (00:20:13.594):
two to three months.

Shannon Algeo (00:20:15.915):
So if I'm reaching my phone to make sure my bank account has enough money to make

Shannon Algeo (00:20:20.877):
sure that I can get my medical results,

Shannon Algeo (00:20:25.939):
to check in on my friends,

Shannon Algeo (00:20:28.600):
check in on my parents,

Shannon Algeo (00:20:29.921):
to order for dinner,

Shannon Algeo (00:20:31.831):
to get the QR code, to get the plane ticket.

Shannon Algeo (00:20:34.913):
Like, that phone is actually holding a lot.

Shannon Algeo (00:20:38.715):
And then socially,

Shannon Algeo (00:20:39.875):
when am I reaching for my phone when I could be reaching either for something

Shannon Algeo (00:20:46.039):
inside of myself,

Shannon Algeo (00:20:47.019):
like I keep thinking about,

Shannon Algeo (00:20:48.240):
am I asking AI a question I should be asking my own heart?

Shannon Algeo (00:20:53.222):
But then also,

Shannon Algeo (00:20:55.225):
What about asking my attachment system,

Shannon Algeo (00:20:58.427):
which can include not just one caregiver,

Shannon Algeo (00:21:00.828):
but a whole community of people who can offer to us soothing and safety and

Shannon Algeo (00:21:05.910):
security and seeing.

Shannon Algeo (00:21:08.131):
And anyway,

Shannon Algeo (00:21:10.192):
yeah,

Shannon Algeo (00:21:11.153):
there's so many angles here,

Shannon Algeo (00:21:13.914):
but understanding the attachment related needs that are underneath the reaching for

Shannon Algeo (00:21:19.997):
the phone.

Shannon Algeo (00:21:22.428):
and then really reckoning with this question,

Shannon Algeo (00:21:25.910):
is that reach for that phone satiating this biological and evolutionary social

Shannon Algeo (00:21:31.774):
need?

Shannon Algeo (00:21:33.135):
Or is it giving this very diminished,

Shannon Algeo (00:21:37.158):
cheap sense of quick hit dopamine satisfaction that feels kind of good enough,

Shannon Algeo (00:21:44.083):
but we're actually missing,

Shannon Algeo (00:21:46.284):
we're getting breadcrumbs instead of the whole damn meal.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:21:51.628):
Yeah.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:21:53.937):
Talking to you about this for the podcast really just like unlocked so much for me

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:21:59.219):
personally and I think what I really appreciate about attachment theory and the way

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:22:06.362):
that you're applying it is that it acknowledges like at the most foundational level

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:22:12.444):
that we need each other and

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:22:17.202):
it is in relationship with each other that we learn to self-tend and co-regulate

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:22:23.108):
and like we can't do that alone and I think that you know in the world of what I

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:22:34.920):
think of as like the world of no help or self-help often it's treated like we're

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:22:40.125):
supposed to figure it out or bear it

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:22:42.125):
And when I really dig into attachment, I'm like, no, like, I actually can't.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:22:45.749):
I need other people.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:22:46.891):
And I have to find friends or beloveds or therapists.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:22:50.855):
Often I've seen therapists talk about how part of their role is to play this,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:22:54.699):
like,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:22:55.220):
figure out this attachment dynamic in a safe and provider-friendly way.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:22:59.164):
Like,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:22:59.965):
We need other people to work on attachment.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:23:02.248):
And also when we do that though, we build our capacity to self-tend.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:23:06.132):
We build our capacity for self-trust.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:23:08.175):
We build our capacity.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:23:09.917):
We expand our window of tolerance for nervous system regulation.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:23:13.441):
So like it's extremely important work for us personally, but also we need each other to do it.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:23:18.593):
and also it helped me start seeing like, what am I doing on my phone?

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:23:22.255):
Because I think before I was thinking about the attachment framework for this,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:23:26.498):
I sort of treated like every time I picked up my phone as the same thing,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:23:30.700):
like it's all bad.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:23:31.901):
Every reason to pick up my phone, like that's just bad.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:23:34.182):
And this sort of helped me see like, okay, none of the time, it's never bad.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:23:40.026):
It's not bad that I'm picking up my phone.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:23:42.437):
But am I picking up my phone because I need directions?

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:23:45.079):
Am I picking up my phone because I'm actually doing something?

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:23:47.720):
Or am I picking up my phone because of that sense of dis-ease?

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:23:51.203):
Because I actually have a relational need right here that I think that I've trained

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:23:56.846):
my brain to believe the phone can resolve when actually,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:23:59.648):
like,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:24:00.769):
you know,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:24:01.789):
seeing that I got likes on Instagram does not speak to that part of me that needs

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:24:05.852):
to be seen in the same way that someone else seeing me does,

Shannon Algeo (00:24:08.834):
like a real person.

Shannon Algeo (00:24:10.555):
Mm-hmm.

Shannon Algeo (00:24:13.214):
Yes, yes.

Shannon Algeo (00:24:15.655):
It makes me think about the question that I have learned through 12-step work.

Shannon Algeo (00:24:23.339):
Am I seeking relief or am I seeking resolve?

Shannon Algeo (00:24:28.402):
And when I'm seeking relief, it's like just this kind of quick scratching of the itch.

Shannon Algeo (00:24:33.744):
I got a flea bite this winter and when I started to scratch the itch,

Shannon Algeo (00:24:37.486):
it started to itch way,

Shannon Algeo (00:24:38.927):
way,

Shannon Algeo (00:24:39.147):
way worse and then I couldn't stop scratching it.

Shannon Algeo (00:24:42.745):
but when I seek resolve, I'm in alignment with my values, my dignity, right?

Shannon Algeo (00:24:51.931):
Like what is it like to engage with my presence,

Shannon Algeo (00:24:54.712):
with value,

Shannon Algeo (00:24:56.353):
with self-respect,

Shannon Algeo (00:24:57.514):
with dignity,

Shannon Algeo (00:24:58.174):
with reverence,

Shannon Algeo (00:24:59.315):
with care?

Shannon Algeo (00:25:01.396):
And my friend, Alexa Salvaggio, I share this quote in the book.

Shannon Algeo (00:25:04.838):
She asked this question because there are in psychedelic work, for example,

Shannon Algeo (00:25:13.207):
There are plenty of people who engage with all sorts of substances to check out.

Shannon Algeo (00:25:18.451):
And there's even people who might say that they're using a substance for ceremonial

Shannon Algeo (00:25:22.974):
purposes,

Shannon Algeo (00:25:23.515):
but they're actually avoiding something in their lives.

Shannon Algeo (00:25:26.857):
And there's kind of that psychedelic shadow of just kind of doing too much medicine.

Shannon Algeo (00:25:30.960):
And so there's this question, am I engaging with this substance?

Shannon Algeo (00:25:33.802):
It could be food,

Shannon Algeo (00:25:34.623):
it could be a drug,

Shannon Algeo (00:25:35.343):
it could be a psychedelic,

Shannon Algeo (00:25:36.244):
it could be a phone,

Shannon Algeo (00:25:36.884):
it could be a person.

Shannon Algeo (00:25:38.626):
Am I engaging with this to check in?

Shannon Algeo (00:25:44.396):
is this allowing me to embody more presence and aliveness and wholeness w-h-o-l-e

Shannon Algeo (00:25:50.941):
or am I am I engaging with this am I using it to check out relief or resolve check

Shannon Algeo (00:25:58.166):
in or check out and maybe you know maybe it's hard to see that sometimes and it's

Shannon Algeo (00:26:02.149):
not always like so clear but I and I like those questions because yeah when I'm

Shannon Algeo (00:26:09.383):
When I'm going on to Instagram, it's really interesting putting out more content.

Shannon Algeo (00:26:16.205):
And I've been creating content with my friend and a video producer, Nico.

Shannon Algeo (00:26:20.387):
And we've been really playing with how do we create together and collaborate

Shannon Algeo (00:26:25.128):
together in a way that feels good for us.

Shannon Algeo (00:26:28.329):
So we're making things together in the meadow at sunset and talking about nature

Shannon Algeo (00:26:34.051):
and reading from the book.

Shannon Algeo (00:26:35.172):
And we're like having fun instead of trying to please the algorithm.

Shannon Algeo (00:26:39.861):
But when I post something and then I see like,

Shannon Algeo (00:26:42.702):
oh,

Shannon Algeo (00:26:42.842):
I only got this many likes,

Shannon Algeo (00:26:46.184):
then I'm still reaching for that sense of being seen because I want the visibility.

Shannon Algeo (00:26:55.177):
Part of me wants the book to be uplifted and people to see the book.

Shannon Algeo (00:26:59.098):
That's my highest vision is I want people to see this book because I genuinely

Shannon Algeo (00:27:03.459):
believe that there's a life in it and I'm proud of it and I think it could help

Shannon Algeo (00:27:08.441):
people.

Shannon Algeo (00:27:09.181):
And then, of course, there's that part of my ego and my humanity.

Shannon Algeo (00:27:16.323):
That's like, I want to be, tell me I'm important.

Shannon Algeo (00:27:20.664):
Tell me I matter.

Shannon Algeo (00:27:22.484):
Tell me that I did a thing that's worthy of mattering like those other people,

Shannon Algeo (00:27:28.088):
like those Oprah-celebrated people,

Shannon Algeo (00:27:29.869):
like Glennon Doyle,

Shannon Algeo (00:27:30.710):
like Liz Gilbert.

Shannon Algeo (00:27:32.171):
Tell me I'm really big and important and that it's worthy.

Shannon Algeo (00:27:36.754):
There is so that process in the shadow of my eagerness to be seen.

Shannon Algeo (00:27:43.419):
And what I loved about writing this book is that in the writing of it,

Shannon Algeo (00:27:49.243):
I made my metric of success.

Shannon Algeo (00:27:53.487):
was my pride in myself when I finished each chapter and I wrote each day.

Shannon Algeo (00:28:00.268):
And I really made a soul contract with myself.

Shannon Algeo (00:28:02.789):
Anything else that happens with this book is icing on cake because my success

Shannon Algeo (00:28:10.431):
already happened with this.

Shannon Algeo (00:28:13.371):
And that's my mantra right now during this release.

Shannon Algeo (00:28:18.232):
It's a lot easier when I'm writing in secrecy in Europe and no one knows about it.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:28:24.788):
I really love that and it is reminding me that in our last book club Becky

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:28:29.254):
Mollenkamp said the same thing about writing her book that like she was really

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:28:33.098):
trying to hold true that like the success was in the book being published and being

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:28:39.105):
in like one other person's hands and as long as that happened this was a success

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:28:43.150):
and

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:28:44.753):
Of course it's hard to like we still get the polls right of the press or the the

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:28:50.594):
good review or the bad review even more of an ego tug right like those things still

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:28:55.915):
happen but I love that you're centered in like you really centered in your

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:29:00.536):
experience and the things that you were doing for the book and not in the reception

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:29:04.937):
or the sales of the book for success

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:29:09.208):
The other thing I love that you were speaking to there and that I think just comes

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:29:12.509):
out of attachment theory in general is that it's like there's it's not wrong to

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:29:20.553):
want to be seen it's actually very human and we need that and for some of us that's

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:29:27.176):
actually really hard like if you're someone who really struggles with being seen

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:29:30.857):
you know attachment may be a place to go to find like is there a wound there that

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:29:35.839):
you can start to work through so that you can

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:29:38.403):
Yeah, absolutely.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:03.017):
I need to remind myself like it's not wrong to want to be seen,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:06.520):
but I actually need to tap into like what actually makes me feel seen because

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:12.865):
social media likes and engagement were always these like hollow proxies.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:18.709):
And the way I knew that is I could never get enough of them.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:21.591):
There was never enough.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:23.092):
It's sort of like I could take them in and in and in and in and in and I never

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:27.255):
actually felt satiated.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:28.316):
I never actually truly felt seen.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:31.507):
And that doesn't happen in interpersonal interactions where I really can feel seen.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:37.229):
So I think that's really important to feel into.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:42.050):
Embracing that it's okay to want to feel seen.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:46.312):
We all need to be seen.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:47.592):
That's like a core relational human need.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:51.610):
and also the false proxies we get for it will never satisfy that need.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:57.233):
And like you said, they'll provide relief, but actually just make the itching worse over time.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:31:02.276):
And the more time I spent on social media,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:31:04.457):
the more I needed to feel seen and the less seen I felt.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:31:08.078):
And that was never going to resolve for me in that space.

Shannon Algeo (00:31:11.680):
Mm-hmm.

Shannon Algeo (00:31:14.463):
did you say hollow proxies?

Shannon Algeo (00:31:16.965):
yeah I love the hollow proxies it's the it's this insatiable it's the same as like

Shannon Algeo (00:31:28.634):
money fame it's this it's this distorted attempt to meet that very human and very

Shannon Algeo (00:31:38.402):
necessary need and

Shannon Algeo (00:31:43.466):
I love,

Shannon Algeo (00:31:43.966):
you know,

Shannon Algeo (00:31:44.827):
Brene Brown talks about how that distinction between fitting in and belonging that

Shannon Algeo (00:31:54.710):
fitting in means that I have to change who I am to be who you want me to be but

Shannon Algeo (00:32:00.953):
then that will feel so empty because the version of me that you're accepting is not

Shannon Algeo (00:32:04.914):
who I am versus belonging requires that I risk being who I am

Shannon Algeo (00:32:12.747):
and then having that capacity to accept whether that makes you want to move closer

Shannon Algeo (00:32:19.189):
to me or that makes you want to turn away.

Shannon Algeo (00:32:21.750):
Belonging requires that we be who we are versus fitting in requires that we change who we are.

Shannon Algeo (00:32:27.932):
And social media and this online world provides this capacity for this distorted sense of self.

Shannon Algeo (00:32:36.275):
I write about this in the chapter, The Shadow and the E-Persona.

Shannon Algeo (00:32:42.974):
because we all have a psychological persona that is part of the human psychology

Shannon Algeo (00:32:48.539):
this projected sense of self that's just a very natural like this is who I think

Shannon Algeo (00:32:52.822):
people will like and this is how I think I will get my needs met so this is the

Shannon Algeo (00:32:56.045):
version of Shannon that I'm going to give to you all and then in the projection of

Shannon Algeo (00:33:00.568):
that persona my shadow gets exiled and I get disconnected from a part of myself

Shannon Algeo (00:33:07.120):
and now there's this E persona and this isn't a thing that I made up this is a

Shannon Algeo (00:33:10.622):
psychiatrist has studied this his name is Elias I would butcher his last name if I

Shannon Algeo (00:33:16.104):
tried to say it it starts with an A and this E persona is this kind of plastic

Shannon Algeo (00:33:24.307):
surgery of self-identity management where we can try to fit in by presenting an E

Shannon Algeo (00:33:31.550):
identity and

Shannon Algeo (00:33:36.925):
Yeah, it's like, is that who I really am?

Shannon Algeo (00:33:41.690):
And,

Shannon Algeo (00:33:42.811):
and that's where I've been feeling like,

Shannon Algeo (00:33:45.133):
can I put stuff out into the world,

Shannon Algeo (00:33:47.756):
digital content?

Shannon Algeo (00:33:50.218):
But at least I know that that's me.

Shannon Algeo (00:33:54.502):
And whether people like it or don't like it, like, there is this sense of like, well,

Shannon Algeo (00:34:01.233):
that's a more whole depiction of who I am rather than some kind of algorithmic pleasing.

Shannon Algeo (00:34:07.277):
This is where it really plays into attachment stuff.

Shannon Algeo (00:34:10.340):
The pleasing of the algorithm,

Shannon Algeo (00:34:12.081):
the pleasing of Daddy Zuckerberg on my knees,

Shannon Algeo (00:34:14.943):
Daddy Zuckerberg,

Shannon Algeo (00:34:15.723):
please love me.

Shannon Algeo (00:34:16.844):
Daddy Bezos, make me number one.

Shannon Algeo (00:34:18.525):
Is this attachment...

Shannon Algeo (00:34:23.937):
trying to be seen by getting the approval of the powerful one, right?

Shannon Algeo (00:34:31.143):
Like what a caregiver parenting dynamic in that.

Shannon Algeo (00:34:35.286):
And what does it mean to actually be seen and to see ourselves and to cultivate

Shannon Algeo (00:34:43.352):
real embodied synchronous relationships

Shannon Algeo (00:34:46.728):
Mm-hmm.

Shannon Algeo (00:34:47.048):
Mm-hmm.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:35:16.701):
I love a parasocial relationship.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:35:18.382):
I have some with some people here.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:35:20.383):
Like, I'm not bad-mouthing them.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:35:22.524):
I feel like people talk about them like they're wrong,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:35:24.485):
and I actually think they can be quite supportive and lovely,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:35:28.848):
but that is not where my attachment needs get met,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:35:32.770):
right?

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:35:33.952):
that is where I can find pleasure and joy and learn about new things and explore

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:35:38.495):
different ideas of myself like so much can happen in a parasocial relationship and

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:35:42.758):
social media like breeds those but that's not where my attachment needs are met

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:35:48.402):
that's not how I'm going to heal my attachment wounds it's not in that space and I

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:35:52.726):
think that can be helpful to start to think through like okay I need like actually

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:35:56.748):
social deep connective relationships for that so yes

(00:36:02.493):
We could keep unpacking this forever, which like we did a whole hour long podcast.

(00:36:06.974):
We have this.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:36:07.754):
But I want to sort of transition us into a little bit of audience Q&A.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:36:12.435):
And I thought a really nice way to do that might be with a practice.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:36:16.236):
So your book is full of big ideas, but also like very pragmatic.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:36:20.257):
Here are things you can try.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:36:21.658):
If you feel addicted to your phone, here are ways to reclaim the self to find wholeness.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:36:27.639):
And one of the very simple and beautiful ones that I like in the book is called the

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:36:32.662):
Hands on Heart with 10 Deep Breaths.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:36:35.504):
And I was wondering if you might lead us in that as a transition to our audience Q&A.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:36:41.308):
Does that feel good?

Shannon Algeo (00:36:43.389):
Yeah, that feels great.

Shannon Algeo (00:36:45.571):
Yeah, and this is such an important part of the book.

Shannon Algeo (00:36:48.728):
which you know we talked a lot about section one today which is reckoning but two

Shannon Algeo (00:36:53.453):
thirds of the book section two remembering and section three reclaiming are rituals

Shannon Algeo (00:37:00.060):
of practice are embodied invitations for you to and excuse my French fuck around

Shannon Algeo (00:37:07.288):
and find out

Shannon Algeo (00:37:08.969):
what works for you don't take my word for it my greatest prayer with this book is

Shannon Algeo (00:37:14.472):
people going and finding out what works for them and just trying experiments of

Shannon Algeo (00:37:19.294):
liberation and this is one of them this is from The Power of Presence I got to

Shannon Algeo (00:37:26.217):
spend a week several years ago when I first moved to California I did a retreat

Shannon Algeo (00:37:31.339):
with Eckhart Tolle and we just practiced presence with

Shannon Algeo (00:37:39.248):
being present in our bodies.

Shannon Algeo (00:37:40.709):
So this practice is inspired by my 15 years of yoga teaching and yoga nidra and

Shannon Algeo (00:37:47.852):
also some of that work with Eckhart Tolle.

Shannon Algeo (00:37:50.874):
And it really speaks to like the literal power in our hands.

Shannon Algeo (00:37:56.117):
And so I just invite all of us to kind of rub our hands together and create some

Shannon Algeo (00:38:00.699):
heat friction in the hands.

Shannon Algeo (00:38:07.230):
and then just kind of hold your hands in the air for a moment.

Shannon Algeo (00:38:12.414):
And if it's comfortable for you,

Shannon Algeo (00:38:13.855):
you can close your eyes,

Shannon Algeo (00:38:18.018):
kind of move from the visual and the hearing and the tasting and the smelling and

Shannon Algeo (00:38:23.121):
the touching.

Shannon Algeo (00:38:25.543):
Five sentences and just take a moment to kind of tune into the sixth sense of

Shannon Algeo (00:38:31.808):
internal bodily awareness,

Shannon Algeo (00:38:34.349):
the awareness of

Shannon Algeo (00:38:37.771):
the wisdom in the body that comes through the communications of the nervous system

Shannon Algeo (00:38:41.714):
through sensation.

Shannon Algeo (00:38:50.622):
Talking about attentional agency, this is a practice of stewarding our attention.

Shannon Algeo (00:38:59.890):
So maybe just bringing your attention to your belly,

Shannon Algeo (00:39:06.027):
and energy in your hands.

Shannon Algeo (00:39:13.689):
Let's all actually,

Shannon Algeo (00:39:14.610):
if it feels comfortable for you,

Shannon Algeo (00:39:16.790):
bring the attention to the navel center and take three breaths stewarding,

(00:39:26.013):
attending to the sensations that you feel or don't feel in the belly and the navel.

Shannon Algeo (00:39:45.989):
and bringing the awareness to the insides of the palms and the fingers.

Shannon Algeo (00:39:51.913):
Notice if you can feel the aliveness in your hands,

Shannon Algeo (00:39:55.755):
the cells,

(00:39:57.116):
the neural pathways,

(00:40:04.981):
energy,

(00:40:06.222):
the life force inside of the hands.

Shannon Algeo (00:40:18.407):
and then just notice which hand you'd like to place onto your heart first and then

Shannon Algeo (00:40:22.989):
you can place your second hand on top of that one.

Shannon Algeo (00:40:28.772):
And I love thinking of the arms as extensions of the heart and the arms and the

Shannon Algeo (00:40:35.575):
hands are these facilitators of care,

Shannon Algeo (00:40:39.156):
of reciprocity,

Shannon Algeo (00:40:41.017):
of giving and receiving,

Shannon Algeo (00:40:43.198):
of tending,

Shannon Algeo (00:40:44.179):
making,

(00:40:46.760):
releasing, loving, holding.

Shannon Algeo (00:40:55.467):
And we'll just take 10 breaths here into the heart space and just imagine giving

Shannon Algeo (00:41:01.552):
and gifting yourself this quality of self care,

Shannon Algeo (00:41:06.496):
self regulation,

Shannon Algeo (00:41:07.857):
maybe feeling some co-regulation with any plants in your room or this community

Shannon Algeo (00:41:14.122):
here gathered today.

Shannon Algeo (00:41:19.055):
just take 10 breaths of presence bringing the awareness to the heart space into the

(00:41:28.002):
power in your hands and in your human heart this muscle of human intelligence

(00:41:47.280):
about 10 intentional breaths attending to the hands and the heart.

(00:42:29.985):
and then when you're ready,

Shannon Algeo (00:42:36.809):
bringing the awareness back to the belly and we'll just take some kind of movement

Shannon Algeo (00:42:42.592):
here,

Shannon Algeo (00:42:42.832):
whatever feels nice for you,

Shannon Algeo (00:42:44.353):
maybe a stretch or a wiggle or a jiggle,

Shannon Algeo (00:42:48.595):
some kind of embodied movement.

Shannon Algeo (00:42:50.576):
Yeah, you could give yourself a hug or let the eyes flutter open, maybe slowly take in a detail.

Shannon Algeo (00:42:59.262):
in the room through your visual field.

Shannon Algeo (00:43:03.408):
And just remembering that so many of these big ideas can be simply integrated

Shannon Algeo (00:43:08.655):
through attuning to the wisdom of the human heart and our embodied intelligence.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:43:18.430):
That's beautiful.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:43:19.390):
Thank you so much, Shannon.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:43:20.690):
I really needed that.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:43:22.611):
I know I asked for it, but I didn't realize how much I needed in that moment.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:43:29.092):
Yeah, yeah.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:43:30.372):
So we have time probably for one or two questions from folks who are here.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:43:37.073):
So friends, if you are still with us, it looks like Catherine has a question.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:43:41.574):
Let me unpin Shannon and I.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:43:45.015):
And Catherine, what is your question?

(00:43:47.923):
Thank you so much.

(00:43:48.964):
I've been so busy.

(00:43:49.865):
I didn't even realize walking into this that Shannon,

(00:43:53.048):
I listened to the podcast episode last week and was so taken with it.

(00:43:55.871):
I've been recommending it to like so many people.

(00:43:57.913):
So it's just listening to you today.

(00:44:02.056):
This idea of,

(00:44:03.818):
you know,

(00:44:04.178):
humans being such social beings and the importance of our relationships and

(00:44:10.764):
attachment.

(00:44:11.485):
And I mean, they are part of the attachment process.

(00:44:13.777):
sorry I just I'm really relaxed from the breathing so let me find my words but I am

(00:44:19.741):
so I work with a lot of writers and artists and I am a writer myself on developing

(00:44:25.584):
our creative practice and I often talk about being in relationship with a creative

(00:44:29.686):
practice and for you as somebody who's just completed this long writing project

(00:44:36.985):
I am imagining,

(00:44:37.966):
you can tell me if this doesn't land,

(00:44:39.726):
but that maybe you were in some kind of a relationship with this project as it was

(00:44:43.928):
taking place.

(00:44:44.929):
It's not a human relationship,

(00:44:46.249):
but if you have any thoughts on our relationship with our practices and what we're

(00:44:52.552):
putting into them and what we're expecting to receive from them,

(00:44:54.653):
perhaps.

Shannon Algeo (00:44:57.495):
Yeah, yeah.

Shannon Algeo (00:44:58.975):
That my...

Shannon Algeo (00:45:00.940):
favorite chapter of the book.

Shannon Algeo (00:45:02.941):
And I think I'd say this in the opening of it.

Shannon Algeo (00:45:04.822):
So this is not a secret is reignite your artistic spark.

Shannon Algeo (00:45:11.244):
And the attachment research and the psychological research supports that

Shannon Algeo (00:45:16.834):
Having a creative practice can be a reparative attachment experience So attending

Shannon Algeo (00:45:24.361):
to one's writing or journaling,

Shannon Algeo (00:45:26.804):
writing poetry,

Shannon Algeo (00:45:28.485):
self-expression can be a resource of self-seeing And if you share that work with

Shannon Algeo (00:45:34.431):
others,

Shannon Algeo (00:45:34.992):
it can be a form of being seen as well in a meaningful way,

Shannon Algeo (00:45:38.995):
in a deeper way And so...

Shannon Algeo (00:45:43.033):
The,

Shannon Algeo (00:45:43.673):
I mean,

Shannon Algeo (00:45:43.933):
that's the essence of the power in your hands is what are we attending to and what

Shannon Algeo (00:45:49.375):
calls us forward?

Shannon Algeo (00:45:51.316):
We can't just get off our phones.

Shannon Algeo (00:45:53.756):
We,

Shannon Algeo (00:45:54.897):
you know,

Shannon Algeo (00:45:55.437):
neuroscience shows that if we want to change a neural pathway,

Shannon Algeo (00:45:59.198):
we have to replace the pattern that we're wanting to replace.

Shannon Algeo (00:46:02.379):
We have to first interrupt the pattern.

Shannon Algeo (00:46:04.820):
So that's this noticing, okay, I'm on my phone.

Shannon Algeo (00:46:07.961):
Then we have to replace it with something else.

Shannon Algeo (00:46:10.001):
And so in the book, it's like,

Shannon Algeo (00:46:12.943):
Yeah, it's like, how do we find worthy replacements?

Shannon Algeo (00:46:16.086):
Cal Newport talks about this in Digital Minimalism.

Shannon Algeo (00:46:19.729):
What do I want to be attending to?

Shannon Algeo (00:46:21.511):
Like,

Shannon Algeo (00:46:21.731):
what could these hands be shaping and guiding and stewarding and loving and so much

Shannon Algeo (00:46:28.016):
human power in here?

Shannon Algeo (00:46:29.197):
If I'm spending two to three months

Shannon Algeo (00:46:31.624):
what could I be doing with these hands in a very literal sense and so the endeavor

Shannon Algeo (00:46:37.590):
of this kind of inner child attachment repair through the creative process is such

Shannon Algeo (00:46:44.317):
a medicine and such a for me like and I know for many of us a great worthy

Shannon Algeo (00:46:50.624):
replacement if we're like okay I want to get off my phone and this book

Shannon Algeo (00:46:56.582):
For me, I think we have to create a lot of importance around our creative endeavors.

Shannon Algeo (00:47:03.349):
And that voice of insecurity in me would say, who the fuck cares what I have to say?

Shannon Algeo (00:47:08.795):
Who cares about a book that doesn't exist?

Shannon Algeo (00:47:10.497):
Who cares?

Shannon Algeo (00:47:11.598):
So I had to create a lot of

Shannon Algeo (00:47:14.036):
importance around this project.

Shannon Algeo (00:47:16.718):
That's why it was helpful for me to have a publisher because it was this

Shannon Algeo (00:47:21.382):
accountability outside of myself.

Shannon Algeo (00:47:23.704):
I think you could also do that with just hiring an editor if you have that

Shannon Algeo (00:47:27.747):
availability or whatever your creative project is.

Shannon Algeo (00:47:30.729):
But relational accountability,

Shannon Algeo (00:47:33.912):
for me,

Shannon Algeo (00:47:35.713):
being seen through my process is essential to me remembering that it matters.

Shannon Algeo (00:47:44.430):
and that's the vulnerability of being an artist is this like potential to think

Shannon Algeo (00:47:49.091):
that our work doesn't matter.

Shannon Algeo (00:47:50.912):
So how do we,

Shannon Algeo (00:47:52.092):
how do we remember the art in our hands through making our creative projects really

Shannon Algeo (00:47:57.894):
important,

Shannon Algeo (00:47:58.534):
not just for the world,

Shannon Algeo (00:47:59.454):
but for our own becoming?

Shannon Algeo (00:48:02.235):
I don't know if that like speaks to your question, Catherine, but it's a great one.

(00:48:08.337):
That's great.

(00:48:08.817):
This is something I could talk about all day.

(00:48:10.677):
So I'd love, I love your response.

(00:48:13.118):
Thank you.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:48:16.324):
Yeah,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:48:16.904):
I love that there's research on how creative practice can yield self-seeing,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:48:22.269):
which can heal attachment.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:48:24.731):
That feels really important in,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:48:28.154):
you know,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:48:28.414):
I emphasized earlier that like we need each other to heal,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:48:31.596):
but also there's not always someone available to be the person who can help you in

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:48:36.300):
these moments or who you can work through this with.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:48:38.242):
And knowing that there are creative ways we can self-tend is really heartening.

(00:48:42.545):
So I love it.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:48:44.266):
Yeah.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:48:45.737):
Does anyone else have a question they want to ask?

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:48:48.201):
We can take one more before we wrap up if anyone has something I can feel one

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:49:00.670):
it's also fine if there's not I may have backfired in my thinking that like 10

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:49:05.571):
breaths would take us into questions it might have just like taken us into

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:49:08.711):
relaxation mode and less verbal mode final call you're welcome to put questions in

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:49:15.713):
the chat you don't have to speak them but we'll take one more second to see if

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:49:22.214):
there's any in the room and then I thought I would wrap us up I think we can move

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:49:28.135):
to that

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:49:29.284):
I thought I would read one of your poems to all of us,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:49:31.906):
Shannon,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:49:32.307):
if that's okay with you,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:49:33.748):
if you don't mind if I read your words.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:49:35.349):
Is that all right?

Shannon Algeo (00:49:36.070):
Yeah.

Shannon Algeo (00:49:36.631):
Oh, yes.

Shannon Algeo (00:49:37.191):
That would be an honor.

Shannon Algeo (00:49:38.072):
Thank you.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:49:39.173):
All right.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:49:39.433):
So I'm going to read this poem that I really want to kind of like invoke as a spell

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:49:44.778):
because it's really beautiful.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:49:45.819):
It's,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:49:46.559):
I think in part,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:49:47.300):
it opens section two of the book and it's called Our Repair Is Not Negotiable.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:49:52.965):
So I'm going to read Shannon's words to all of us now.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:49:58.460):
Though the world may fall to pieces, I shall continue my journey to wholeness.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:50:05.202):
For I too am a piece of this broken world.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:50:10.184):
Our repair is not negotiable in a universe that expands and contracts,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:50:15.826):
flows and ebbs,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:50:17.746):
cycles and spins.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:50:21.167):
Just as the land knows how to heal,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:50:23.528):
conserve,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:50:24.289):
consume,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:50:25.109):
and adapt,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:50:26.450):
I too am made of land,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:50:28.871):
compostable,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:50:29.932):
renewable,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:50:30.933):
flammable,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:50:31.953):
fallible.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:50:34.435):
I shall find sweet little ways to hold and be held,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:50:38.817):
not as an optional luxury,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:50:40.978):
but as an inherent necessity of the soul.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:50:45.681):
While the world may fall apart, I will not come undone, at least not completely.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:50:51.928):
for every dark night of the soul paves a path toward morning.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:50:56.210):
A sunlight of the spirit lies on the horizon.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:51:01.232):
Stay steadfast and breathing, beloveds.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:51:04.574):
This is how we walk each other home.

Shannon Algeo (00:51:09.716):
Oh my gosh, it's so cool to hear you read that.

Shannon Algeo (00:51:12.497):
Wow.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:51:13.418):
Well, thank you for that beautiful poem.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:51:16.159):
It felt really timely and

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:51:18.634):
Thank you everyone who joined us today to celebrate the power in your hands.