🐅 Liberate Your Business! Liberate Your Life! - with Becky Mollenkamp

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:00:00.031):
Hello, and welcome to the off the grid clubhouse.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:00:03.534):
I am your host,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:00:04.274):
Amelia Hruby,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:00:05.174):
and this is our private podcast and newsletter for friends,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:00:09.339):
fans,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:00:09.777):
and super fans of off the grid,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:00:11.679):
leaving social media.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:00:13.760):
Today, I have a very special free episode here in the clubhouse.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:00:17.663):
We don't do this very often, except when I want to feature really amazing people.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:00:22.146):
And in this one, we will be featuring my favorite feminist founder, Becky Mollenkamp.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:00:27.514):
Becky has just published,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:00:29.517):
like a few days ago as this is coming out,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:00:32.762):
her new book,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:00:33.783):
Liberate Your Business,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:00:35.311):
a radical guide for entrepreneurs.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:00:36.467):
entrepreneurs building inside a broken system.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:00:39.509):
Becky was kind enough to send me an early copy of this.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:00:41.570):
And I read it like in one sitting when I was on a flight,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:00:44.951):
I was like underlining everything on my Kindle.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:00:47.353):
I was so excited to see everything Becky was weaving together here.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:00:51.154):
And I just knew that off the grid listeners would love this book and be as excited

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:00:55.337):
about it as I am.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:00:56.457):
So in this conversation,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:00:58.098):
Becky and I are going to talk a little bit about her book about how to liberate

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:01:01.220):
your business.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:01:02.732):
And about a very special event we have coming up together on May 20th.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:01:06.718):
So before we do any of that, I really want to encourage you to go buy a copy of the book.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:01:12.706):
The website is linked in the show notes.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:01:15.033):
And Becky has even been kind enough to make us a special discount code.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:01:17.975):
So if you use the code Amelia,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:01:19.779):
A-M-E-L-I-A,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:01:21.477):
all caps,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:01:21.978):
you can get $5 off your book purchase on Becky's website.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:01:25.660):
So head to the show notes and do that.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:01:27.562):
And then while you're there,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:01:28.422):
you can also RSVP for our free book club,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:01:31.484):
which is happening May 20th.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:01:33.146):
We're going to have a really lovely community chat on Zoom.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:01:36.888):
I'll talk to Becky a bit more about the book.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:01:39.090):
We will take listener questions.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:01:40.871):
It's going to be a lovely time.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:01:42.092):
So

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:01:43.145):
this episode is just a preview it's just a taste a little appetizer of all of the

Becky Mollenkamp (00:01:48.746):
goodness we're going to get into with becky this month and all of that said hi

Becky Mollenkamp (00:01:53.488):
becky welcome to the clubhouse hi let's call it an appetizer yeah that was bad and

Becky Mollenkamp (00:01:59.929):
also you didn't mention you're in the book amelia

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:02:03.032):
oh yes i literally when i was reading the first time i had completely forgotten

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:02:07.695):
this i was like because we did it over email it was you know it was just like

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:02:11.238):
another thing i was doing in my inbox i literally got to the part where i'm there

Becky Mollenkamp (00:02:13.920):
and i was like me hopefully you weren't like wait a minute she never said this

Becky Mollenkamp (00:02:19.304):
because i swear i got your permission consent you haven't you absolutely got my

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:02:23.447):
permission we totally like did this together but yes i i'm on page 88

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:02:28.489):
And I love how you wove interviews and other voices into your book.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:02:33.073):
It feels like a real way of putting everything you talk about the book into practice.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:02:38.958):
So let's start just with kind of where the book began.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:02:42.422):
I'm so curious,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:02:43.282):
could you tell listeners a little bit about like,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:02:45.944):
where did the idea for this book come from?

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:02:49.047):
And why now?

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:02:50.128):
Like, why was this the moment that you needed to write this book?

Becky Mollenkamp (00:02:52.890):
Well, I'm going to reveal my age.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:02:55.073):
I'm 51.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:02:55.632):
But

Becky Mollenkamp (00:02:57.200):
at the time of writing this, I was 50.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:02:59.202):
And so part of it was, I always wanted to write a book and 50 feels like a big milestone.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:03:03.488):
I was like, I want to write a book by the time I'm 50.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:03:05.436):
Well,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:03:05.570):
I was already 50,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:03:06.852):
but I thought if I do it before I turn 51,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:03:08.534):
then it sort of counts as writing a book by 50.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:03:10.836):
So that was part of it was just like,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:03:12.698):
That feeling that I think many people as we age,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:03:15.080):
whatever your milestones are,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:03:16.341):
where you start to feel that tug of like,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:03:18.004):
have I done the things I wanted to do?

Becky Mollenkamp (00:03:20.024):
The book talks about legacy and it did feel like a bit like that for me,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:03:23.406):
just feeling that desire to have some legacy,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:03:26.148):
leave something behind,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:03:27.069):
leave something that lives beyond me besides my child,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:03:29.351):
which he's wonderful,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:03:30.392):
but I wanted something in this business space,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:03:32.553):
this part of my life,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:03:33.494):
because my professional part of my life has been such an important part of my life.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:03:36.677):
So that's part of the reason for the timing.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:03:38.778):
As far as what the book's about,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:03:41.173):
Part of it is I read a lot of business books,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:03:43.094):
I used to,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:03:43.555):
I've been actually reading fewer business books,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:03:45.796):
but so many of them to me fall kind of on these two extremes,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:03:50.142):
one of

Becky Mollenkamp (00:03:51.767):
the world's the systems are all broken anyway so you might as well get yours like

Becky Mollenkamp (00:03:55.649):
kind of that like how rich can you get you gotta get your piece of the pie kind of

Becky Mollenkamp (00:03:58.911):
thing or this other extreme which is more where i sit which would be the system's

Becky Mollenkamp (00:04:04.635):
really broken we need to build a new system and i i agree with that and yet for

Becky Mollenkamp (00:04:09.758):
many of us those two extremes don't work one because our value set doesn't allow us

Becky Mollenkamp (00:04:13.901):
to say well if everything's broken i'll just get mine but then we also live inside

Becky Mollenkamp (00:04:18.984):
of a real world where we can't just say

Becky Mollenkamp (00:04:21.586):
Well, let's just build a completely new system.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:04:23.708):
I would love that.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:04:24.367):
And yet I have to pay my mortgage, right?

Becky Mollenkamp (00:04:26.469):
I have to make money so that I can pay the bills.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:04:29.651):
So what does it look like to say,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:04:31.231):
I want to run a business that actually feels okay inside my body that doesn't leave

Becky Mollenkamp (00:04:35.493):
me at the end of the night feeling icky.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:04:37.536):
but also allows me to pay the bills and like function in this broken system that I'm in.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:04:42.398):
And I had a hard time finding those kinds of books.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:04:45.460):
And that's really the space that I want to occupy is because I am a little too

Becky Mollenkamp (00:04:51.262):
realist to be a total idealist,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:04:53.083):
but I'm definitely too much of an idealist to be a nihilist completely and just

Becky Mollenkamp (00:04:57.565):
give up.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:04:58.705):
And so it's sort of like writing the book I want because as my friend and business

Becky Mollenkamp (00:05:02.247):
partner and also featured in the book,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:05:03.709):
Faith Clark says,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:05:05.087):
The medicine we give is usually the medicine we need.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:05:07.269):
And that's the medicine I needed.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:05:09.150):
And so it was like, I'm going to write this thing.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:05:11.772):
Yeah, I appreciate you walking us through that.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:05:15.254):
And I love that on the back.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:05:19.558):
cover copy for the book, you call it a deprogramming manual.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:05:23.822):
And that felt so clear and true to me.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:05:27.325):
And it comes through in the story that you share of your own career throughout the book.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:05:31.011):
So,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:05:31.248):
you know,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:05:31.748):
I didn't start with your bio here,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:05:33.630):
but you have a master's degree in communications,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:05:36.212):
you worked in journalism for 20 years,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:05:38.574):
particularly at places we might recognize like Better Homes and Gardens.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:05:41.677):
And

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:05:42.502):
And then you moved into content marketing and then eventually into coaching and

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:05:47.305):
particularly working as a feminist business coach.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:05:49.667):
And I think that your book really speaks to that journey of deprogramming from

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:05:58.152):
being like,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:05:59.513):
I will succeed at the traditional norms of career.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:06:02.635):
I will succeed.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:06:03.658):
like pass every milestone,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:06:05.059):
I will check every box and realizing like you've built something that feels bad and

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:06:11.183):
doesn't work.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:06:11.864):
The things I always talk about social media, right?

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:06:13.264):
Like how does it feel and is it working?

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:06:15.246):
And I talk about that in social media,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:06:16.647):
but in the book,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:06:17.127):
you talk a little bit how like that's the career for you.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:06:19.989):
Like you had been on this path and then it felt bad and it wasn't working

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:06:23.251):
ultimately for what you needed to be a like happy and well person.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:06:28.303):
And then you had to unravel that to build something different.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:06:32.107):
And so you move into self-employment, but realize you're just building the same old thing again.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:06:37.652):
And then you're able to really kind of reimagine what your business can be,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:06:42.837):
how it can look for you.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:06:44.378):
And so I think this book is so powerful for anyone who has found themselves

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:06:48.522):
climbing a corporate ladder or found themselves building a business that just like

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:06:53.372):
isn't it or that just like is as harmful to them as having a job ever was and then

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:06:59.835):
liberate your business can come in and like totally rewrite the story on what that

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:07:04.336):
can be for them so how did you begin your own process of rewriting your

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:07:11.299):
self-employment journey I just gave the highlights of your career but maybe you

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:07:14.580):
want to take us to kind of some of the moments you talk about in the book where

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:07:17.361):
you're like oh here's where I realized it wasn't working and here's how I started

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:07:21.123):
to change my path

Becky Mollenkamp (00:07:22.604):
Yeah, for anyone who's worried that it's like a memoir, it's not, just to be clear.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:07:26.210):
We've been very small doses of my story at the beginning of each chapter just to

Becky Mollenkamp (00:07:30.616):
kind of help people place themselves in some of this stuff,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:07:34.121):
to see themselves in it and relate to,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:07:36.945):
oh,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:07:37.147):
I know that.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:07:37.646):
feeling but definitely it's not just my story um but i do share in little bits

Becky Mollenkamp (00:07:43.875):
throughout where you get this glimpse of exactly what you said of me and i

Becky Mollenkamp (00:07:48.542):
reference maya angelou's i know why the caged bird sings because it really

Becky Mollenkamp (00:07:52.208):
resonated

Becky Mollenkamp (00:07:52.688):
with me it always has because I did feel a bit like I built this gilded cage for

Becky Mollenkamp (00:07:56.849):
myself it was everything looked really beautiful and the door was wide open I could

Becky Mollenkamp (00:08:02.130):
have gotten out but I didn't feel like I could I felt very trapped inside of this

Becky Mollenkamp (00:08:06.092):
cage that I had created myself and sometimes it's almost harder when you build it

Becky Mollenkamp (00:08:10.213):
yourself because it's like

Becky Mollenkamp (00:08:12.820):
I did this, so I should be happy inside here, and why am I not?

Becky Mollenkamp (00:08:16.804):
And there were sort of two key moments that I talk about that really changed things for me.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:08:21.268):
One was 2010 when my brother died of a heroin overdose at the same time I was

Becky Mollenkamp (00:08:25.632):
beginning the process of separating and eventually divorcing.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:08:29.080):
It was a lot in a short amount of time in my life,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:08:31.317):
and it was such a wake-up call because I was already starting to feel,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:08:35.100):
and the reason my marriage was beginning to end was because I had been starting to

Becky Mollenkamp (00:08:37.883):
feel that

Becky Mollenkamp (00:08:39.095):
Why am I not happy inside of this?

Becky Mollenkamp (00:08:41.937):
Everything looks so good on paper.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:08:43.358):
I've built this beautiful on paper life that other people look and say,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:08:46.348):
wow,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:08:47.201):
you travel all the time.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:08:49.183):
You've got a beautiful new home and a shiny BMW and you're living the life.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:08:54.207):
Your husband's a nice guy and you have a job that seems so impressive.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:08:58.790):
And I couldn't figure out why I wasn't happy.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:09:00.512):
And that's a really lonely place to be when everyone around you is telling you you

Becky Mollenkamp (00:09:04.034):
should be happy and you start to feel guilty that you don't feel happy because

Becky Mollenkamp (00:09:07.517):
there's nothing you can point to to say,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:09:09.639):
well,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:09:09.799):
this is it.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:09:10.499):
I just knew none of it felt like me.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:09:13.061):
But that's a really hard thing to articulate.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:09:14.782):
But when my brother died, it was like the wake up call that I needed that life is way too short.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:09:19.286):
I cannot just be happy with a good on paper life.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:09:22.348):
I want a life that actually reflects what I want,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:09:24.211):
which began a big unraveling because I didn't know what I wanted.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:09:27.515):
I'd never asked myself that question.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:09:28.957):
I was 35 years old and never really sat with, what do I want my life to be?

Becky Mollenkamp (00:09:33.724):
From nine years old, I said I was going to be a writer.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:09:35.827):
I was just on this path that like,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:09:37.890):
A nine year old had decided for me and that I was too proud and too vain and too

Becky Mollenkamp (00:09:43.571):
many to a lot of things to ever really question.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:09:47.312):
And so I just kept doing it for all the reasons, being the good girl.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:09:49.893):
And I talk about a lot of those in there.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:09:51.693):
So that was the first moment of sort of my internal work of undoing a lot of this

Becky Mollenkamp (00:09:56.274):
and starting to really sit with what do I want my life to look like?

Becky Mollenkamp (00:09:58.935):
What do I actually want to do?

Becky Mollenkamp (00:10:00.575):
There was some humbling of myself moving back home at 37 and things like that.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:10:05.296):
The next moment came in 2014.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:10:07.912):
when Michael Brown was murdered a half a mile from my doorstep in Ferguson.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:10:12.148):
And

Becky Mollenkamp (00:10:14.583):
I remember that moment of seeing people angry enough to be setting things on fire.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:10:19.146):
I could see the fires from my house.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:10:21.408):
And knowing that I was thinking, this is awful.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:10:24.230):
I feel that too.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:10:25.210):
I feel this is wrong and awful.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:10:26.932):
Why am I not feeling it enough that I want to be out on the streets, right?

Becky Mollenkamp (00:10:30.174):
Sort of having to sit with myself and my feminism to wonder why I was feeling like,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:10:36.778):
yeah,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:10:36.959):
that sucks,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:10:37.579):
but not anything much deeper than that.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:10:39.900):
and doing my own research,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:10:41.181):
I was a journalist,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:10:41.821):
so I did a lot of research,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:10:42.782):
started to understand the realities of what it means to be black in St.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:10:46.664):
Louis,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:10:47.985):
and it took that for me to start to sit with privilege and to understand,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:10:52.929):
identify,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:10:53.629):
be with,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:10:54.709):
recognize my privilege,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:10:55.950):
and I started doing that kind of work on myself then,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:10:59.112):
and then eventually that led to that place of,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:11:01.093):
wait a minute,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:11:02.013):
I've done all of this work on knowing what I want,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:11:05.055):
of understanding my role in these systems and what these systems are,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:11:09.200):
in so much of my life and yet here's this big part of my life my business where

Becky Mollenkamp (00:11:13.022):
i've almost treated it as its own thing that's separate from all that work right

Becky Mollenkamp (00:11:17.504):
and that doesn't make a lot of sense because my work takes up a lot of my life and

Becky Mollenkamp (00:11:21.486):
so why am i not applying some of these same lessons to this so that sort of after

Becky Mollenkamp (00:11:27.068):
2014 doing all the work myself that was where i started to put that same lens onto

Becky Mollenkamp (00:11:31.450):
both how i do my coaching and then how i run my business

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:11:35.341):
I know there are so many examples in the book,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:11:36.702):
but I'm just wondering here,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:11:38.124):
could you talk a little bit about one or two of the shifts you made in your

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:11:41.827):
coaching and maybe a few other examples more structurally in your business that

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:11:46.851):
were a result of that realization?

Becky Mollenkamp (00:11:48.594):
Yeah.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:11:49.254):
I mean,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:11:49.754):
the place I really started was in my coaching,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:11:52.016):
which is good because it was where I was probably causing the most harm.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:11:55.881):
At that time, I was a quote unquote mindset coach.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:11:59.366):
It's what I called myself.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:12:00.988):
Like so many of the well-meaning white ladies that I still see that are very much

Becky Mollenkamp (00:12:04.613):
in that same place of trying to help people if they could just fix their mindsets,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:12:08.739):
you know,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:12:09.060):
if they could just think better.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:12:10.583):
thoughts.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:12:11.062):
If they could manifest it, they can make more happen for themselves.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:12:14.283):
And I was causing harm without realizing it.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:12:17.124):
I didn't understand because I wasn't understanding that you can't mindset your way.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:12:22.247):
You can't just change your thoughts and suddenly racism doesn't exist.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:12:25.806):
Sexism doesn't exist.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:12:27.066):
Homophobia doesn't exist.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:12:28.487):
These things exist regardless of how we feel or think about them, right?

Becky Mollenkamp (00:12:33.108):
That is a structural reality.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:12:35.589):
And when we start telling people

Becky Mollenkamp (00:12:38.069):
Giving them,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:12:38.508):
whether it is explicit or implicit,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:12:40.609):
the idea that their problems are because of how they're thinking about the things

Becky Mollenkamp (00:12:45.251):
around them,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:12:46.071):
how they're feeling about the world around them,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:12:47.872):
instead of the problem being the world around them,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:12:50.552):
we are harming them.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:12:51.873):
We are causing a lot of harm.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:12:53.333):
And I did.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:12:54.594):
I caused harm,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:12:55.914):
which is a really hard thing to sit with,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:12:57.378):
too,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:12:57.675):
when we go through some of this work,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:12:59.855):
most especially for those of us with the most privilege,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:13:02.416):
the recognition that we have caused harm.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:13:04.927):
because we were unaware, not maliciously causing harm, right?

Becky Mollenkamp (00:13:08.830):
But that we unintentionally caused harm.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:13:10.631):
And I had to sit with some of that stuff.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:13:12.413):
And from there,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:13:13.072):
it's like,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:13:13.353):
you can either let that shame shut you down or you can use that as a powerful tool

Becky Mollenkamp (00:13:17.976):
to create change.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:13:18.876):
And that was what I tried to do.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:13:20.238):
So first of all,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:13:20.998):
I stopped calling myself a mindset coach because I recognize that while there is

Becky Mollenkamp (00:13:25.482):
truth to,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:13:26.861):
we have individual work we need to do and can do.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:13:29.123):
We have things inside of our control.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:13:30.524):
We have agency over a lot of things.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:13:32.935):
The idea of a mindset coach tends to be very reductive and make people start to

Becky Mollenkamp (00:13:37.198):
believe that everything's about their mindset.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:13:39.120):
You know,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:13:39.340):
if I just,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:13:40.121):
I can manifest it,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:13:40.821):
I can make it happen without integrating any of these other discussions.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:13:44.464):
So my work really became with clients and helping to talk about

Becky Mollenkamp (00:13:48.781):
what are some of the systemic issues at play here?

Becky Mollenkamp (00:13:52.146):
What is and is not inside of your control?

Becky Mollenkamp (00:13:55.070):
And instead of it just being about shifting their thoughts,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:13:57.694):
it also became a lot of grief work,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:14:00.719):
not trauma work,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:14:01.540):
to be clear,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:14:02.061):
because I am not a therapist,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:14:03.703):
but also just honoring the grief and the reality of living inside of broken systems

Becky Mollenkamp (00:14:08.084):
and the real harm and pain that that can cause.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:14:10.465):
And instead of taking that on as a personal failure, helping clients start to separate that out.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:14:15.106):
What if this is actually me versus what is the systems and not my fault and not

Becky Mollenkamp (00:14:20.028):
something I have to feel bad about.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:14:21.648):
That really radically shifted everything about how I work with clients.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:14:25.129):
As far as my business,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:14:27.175):
it looks a little more,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:14:28.150):
well,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:14:28.331):
first of all,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:14:29.710):
I started shutting my laptop more often.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:14:32.809):
And not just working all the time, right?

Becky Mollenkamp (00:14:34.730):
Because I recognize I was treating myself like the bosses I've had who expected me

Becky Mollenkamp (00:14:40.215):
to work a lot more than I needed to or to be creative during certain hours or

Becky Mollenkamp (00:14:44.718):
whatever that might look like.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:14:45.939):
So I started putting a lot more boundaries around my own time.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:14:49.061):
And on the outward facing stuff,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:14:50.703):
it also looked like really shifting the way I market my business,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:14:54.565):
looking for those points where I was...

Becky Mollenkamp (00:14:57.125):
using things like false urgency false scarcity to try you know some of that

Becky Mollenkamp (00:15:01.707):
manipulative sort of languaging that we've all been taught and it works but is it

Becky Mollenkamp (00:15:06.590):
how i want to show up also introduced introduced equitable pricing to most of my

Becky Mollenkamp (00:15:11.412):
offers that allow people to see their privilege and or marginalizations and opt in

Becky Mollenkamp (00:15:17.916):
to the place that makes sense for them based on those so those are a few of the

Becky Mollenkamp (00:15:21.898):
things i mean i

Becky Mollenkamp (00:15:23.015):
there's so much that changed about my business.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:15:25.396):
But yeah, that's a few of the things I've done.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:15:27.598):
Yeah, no, thank you for that.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:15:28.598):
I think it's, it's really helpful, especially when we're thinking about liberation and business.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:15:34.802):
And so much of your book is about looking at systemic

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:15:39.187):
issues and struggles and understanding ourselves differently in those contexts.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:15:43.529):
And I think that, you know, I love that type of high level work.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:15:46.951):
And also it's like the actual practical actions we take in response to a resistance

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:15:51.833):
to those systems are where it comes into our business,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:15:55.195):
right?

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:15:55.455):
There's the personal, there's a systemic,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:15:57.678):
But then our business is a structure we're building in the midst of that, right?

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:16:01.443):
Like it's not just us.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:16:03.085):
The business isn't just you, but it's also for most of us, not a systemic force, right?

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:16:08.471):
Like we're not running the Amazons of the world that are at a scale that like reshape systems.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:16:14.243):
we're trying to carve out space for a structure that can be and feel liberatory

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:16:18.266):
amidst all of this and not just liberatory for ourselves as individuals,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:16:21.868):
because that is really just like,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:16:23.651):
you know,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:16:23.869):
the cash grab capitalism,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:16:25.250):
get rich quick businesses that are like,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:16:26.811):
it made me free,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:16:27.732):
but like probably harmed a lot of other people in the process.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:16:31.194):
And how do we, how do we do that?

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:16:32.615):
And how do we make space for that?

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:16:33.456):
So I think it's nice,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:16:34.096):
like the way that you're always both pointing us toward the systems and offering

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:16:38.579):
practical actions that we can take to deprogram and to build otherwise,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:16:42.363):
because,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:16:44.302):
you know,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:16:44.582):
the way you position the book at the beginning was sort of like,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:16:47.168):
well,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:16:47.364):
we're not just getting rich quick.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:16:49.126):
And also, we're not doing a totally different thing.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:16:51.668):
But I think this book has so many pathways for doing a totally different thing.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:16:55.733):
I mean,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:16:55.931):
it's not claiming that like,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:16:57.573):
our businesses themselves dismantle capitalism,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:16:59.834):
but I saw so many possibilities in these pages for ways that we can work against it

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:17:05.559):
very radically.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:17:06.419):
So

Becky Mollenkamp (00:17:07.954):
I think it's there too, for what it's worth.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:17:09.656):
Thank you.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:17:10.655):
There are a lot of changes that we can make,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:17:12.496):
sometimes very small,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:17:13.556):
sometimes much larger,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:17:14.857):
that allow us to sort of push back against or refuse some of the things that happen

Becky Mollenkamp (00:17:19.560):
inside the system.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:17:21.421):
And my hope is that it functions as more of a choose-your-own-adventure kind of a

Becky Mollenkamp (00:17:25.604):
book in a way of like,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:17:27.731):
I don't expect that anyone's going to do them all.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:17:29.573):
I can't do them all.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:17:30.833):
Right.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:17:31.113):
We have to sort of figure out what are the things we can do.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:17:33.915):
And then maybe we opt for some others later and then more because we can't just do

Becky Mollenkamp (00:17:37.918):
it all overnight.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:17:39.279):
You know, you and I have come down in different places on AI right now.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:17:42.922):
And I think that's part of what this book I hope offers is that.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:17:47.397):
Not everyone can do all the right things.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:17:50.083):
There is no being perfect inside an imperfect system.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:17:52.770):
It's trying to figure out what does work for you.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:17:54.453):
And I think being conscious and aware and making intentional choices.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:17:58.342):
This is also something I like about being a business owner and having a business is

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:18:02.044):
like,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:18:02.365):
while I am one person and I always try to remain congruent between my personal life

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:18:07.508):
and my business life,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:18:08.749):
there are also different kind of playgrounds for me,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:18:11.110):
right?

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:18:11.350):
Like there are things that I won't do in the realm of off the grid or softer sounds

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:18:15.453):
that I'm okay with in my personal life.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:18:17.335):
I think about,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:18:17.754):
I'm thinking about this a lot with Substack right now because I'm preparing to

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:18:21.377):
leave,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:18:21.957):
like remove the clubhouse off of Substack.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:18:25.770):
in onto another platform, still a little bit to be determined which one I'm figuring it out.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:18:30.436):
And like, I'm doing that because of the stated values of off the grid.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:18:34.961):
But in my personal life, like is Substack a problem for me?

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:18:37.744):
Do I have any issues with being there?

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:18:39.146):
Like not as much.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:18:40.147):
It actually feels, I kind of feel okay.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:18:42.009):
I can, it's not,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:18:44.219):
it's different.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:18:45.020):
And I think that this is also a place where it's like,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:18:47.501):
sometimes when I work with people who are really invested in like creating a

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:18:51.264):
different world,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:18:51.745):
who have very radical politics,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:18:53.806):
we talk about like,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:18:54.947):
what are the different realms of your life?

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:18:57.108):
How are you reshaping things in your household?

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:18:59.270):
How are you reshaping things in your local community?

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:19:00.851):
How are you reshaping things in your business?

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:19:02.793):
Because they all have different people involved and different things are at stake.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:19:06.755):
And I think there's space to maneuver.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:19:09.097):
And so yes, absolutely.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:19:10.058):
Like,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:19:10.776):
I actually think if someone tried to do every single thing in this book,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:19:13.239):
one,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:19:13.380):
you'd get burned out.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:19:14.742):
And two, to be honest, I don't know that you'd have a business.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:19:18.326):
Because this isn't a guide to how to have a business.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:19:20.770):
This is not like create offerings, set up your pricing.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:19:24.134):
That's not what it is.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:19:25.175):
It's a guide to looking at the business that you have.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:19:29.093):
and then picking focus areas where you're going to rework the values,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:19:32.856):
where you're going to deprogram some of it.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:19:35.397):
And yeah, it's kind of like if you deprogram everything, you're not part of the program anymore.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:19:39.704):
Yeah.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:19:39.921):
And a hundred percent, I think you're right.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:19:41.242):
Like I really tried very hard to walk that strange line of all of that and make it

Becky Mollenkamp (00:19:47.186):
clear that I'm not judging people for the choices they make either,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:19:50.768):
because that's exactly why the cover says it's a broken system.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:19:54.431):
There is only so much that we can all do, right?

Becky Mollenkamp (00:19:56.713):
We have to acknowledge the reality of where we are

Becky Mollenkamp (00:19:58.974):
right now would I love things to look completely different yeah I mean my politics

Becky Mollenkamp (00:20:02.917):
are I'm a socialist I can't have the business that I want to have inside of the

Becky Mollenkamp (00:20:08.440):
system that I live in because it would look entirely different inside of a

Becky Mollenkamp (00:20:12.663):
socialist system but I don't live in that here's the reality of where I am and I

Becky Mollenkamp (00:20:17.587):
could say well I'm gonna pick up tomorrow move to a socialist country but that's

Becky Mollenkamp (00:20:20.168):
not realistic and it also doesn't work with where I'm at in life and everything

Becky Mollenkamp (00:20:23.591):
else so how do I make choices where I can

Becky Mollenkamp (00:20:28.297):
that reflect my values while really making sure that I am truly asking myself the

Becky Mollenkamp (00:20:33.923):
questions that allow me to be more honest with myself about where I can.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:20:41.790):
Because I think that is also a piece where especially those with the most privilege

Becky Mollenkamp (00:20:44.913):
sometimes can

Becky Mollenkamp (00:20:46.808):
convince themselves that maybe there are choices they can't make where maybe they

Becky Mollenkamp (00:20:50.896):
actually could.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:20:52.016):
And for me, again, everything always starts at awareness.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:20:54.620):
So I really want to start with awareness.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:20:56.663):
And then once we have the awareness, then there's becomes more intention.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:21:00.008):
And if you are aware

Becky Mollenkamp (00:21:01.930):
like with Substack.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:21:02.791):
As an example, we're both using Substack for the moment.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:21:05.373):
We both are now aware of,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:21:07.476):
and I've been aware of problems with Substack for a long time.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:21:10.497):
And wrestling with those,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:21:11.638):
just because I become aware doesn't mean I immediately change my behaviors.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:21:16.122):
I have the awareness and now I can intentionally start to make choices.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:21:19.304):
And for now, my intentional choice is that I'm remaining.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:21:22.190):
Why?

Becky Mollenkamp (00:21:22.886):
For a lot of reasons.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:21:23.807):
One is finances.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:21:24.907):
It's the only place I have yet to find where I can be there without having to spend money.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:21:29.969):
Everywhere that I want to email people, it's going to cost a lot of money.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:21:33.410):
But secondly,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:21:35.210):
for now,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:21:35.950):
I am still trying to operate under this belief that maybe if enough folks actually

Becky Mollenkamp (00:21:40.832):
try to break the system from within,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:21:43.033):
we can affect change.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:21:45.072):
I'm getting closer to thinking that's not possible.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:21:47.293):
So I am like you starting to evaluate where might I be able to move,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:21:51.494):
but I have the awareness and that's the key piece is like,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:21:54.835):
I'm not operating through this place of just blissfully unaware of the problems,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:21:58.516):
but I'm also not making rash decisions without thinking them through.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:22:03.417):
There's that intentionality.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:22:04.698):
And then we get to the place of more informed action.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:22:07.158):
And that's kind of what I hope for people to do.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:22:10.803):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:22:12.746):
I never subscribe to urgency in shifts like this.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:22:17.808):
You know,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:22:18.149):
I told people I was leaving Substack,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:22:20.011):
I think in like February of this year,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:22:21.751):
but I don't actually plan to do it until August,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:22:24.935):
probably.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:22:25.897):
I was very clear, like, this is something I know I want to do.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:22:28.076):
And also the next six months of my life are wild.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:22:31.339):
And I'm not going to put this on top of myself.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:22:33.080):
And also,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:22:33.501):
like,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:22:34.281):
there are things that are urgent in life,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:22:36.083):
but what tech platform you send your emails from is not one of them.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:22:40.332):
I believe.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:22:41.132):
And I agree because they're all flawed.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:22:42.915):
I mean,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:22:43.153):
almost all of these systems are the tools that we use are flawed for the same

Becky Mollenkamp (00:22:46.995):
reasons that we're talking about,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:22:47.916):
because they're operating inside of a broken system,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:22:50.097):
right?

Becky Mollenkamp (00:22:50.697):
And so it is very,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:22:52.533):
I just always want to push back a little bit on this perfectionist ideal,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:22:57.458):
even inside of progressive movements that know that this perfectionism stuff is a

Becky Mollenkamp (00:23:03.224):
product of white supremacy.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:23:04.485):
And yet you still see it coming up where it's like, well, you're not being a perfect activist.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:23:10.631):
You're not running your business in the perfect way.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:23:13.134):
I know.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:23:13.780):
I know I'm not.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:23:14.956):
Right.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:23:15.116):
So I'm not putting myself up as a role model of what a perfectly liberated business looks like.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:23:19.858):
My hope is that I am slowly moving myself closer in a way that also allows me to

Becky Mollenkamp (00:23:25.642):
still pay my bills,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:23:27.141):
still take care of myself and my family,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:23:29.763):
you know,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:23:30.763):
not burn myself out because none of that helps either.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:23:33.004):
Right.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:23:33.384):
So how do we do that in the slow incremental ways?

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:23:36.345):
And something I think a lot about is like,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:23:38.586):
what are the areas where I do hold the line and I find total alignment?

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:23:42.288):
And then there are other areas where I don't.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:23:43.751):
Right.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:23:43.949):
So that's where like

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:23:45.174):
through the project of Off the Grid and the business of Off the Grid,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:23:47.555):
it's like,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:23:47.917):
well,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:23:48.376):
not using social media is the line there.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:23:50.897):
So if I have to make frustrating or challenging changes like I am right now,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:23:55.479):
like I will do that because this is a space where like,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:23:58.080):
that's the thing I hold true to.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:24:00.362):
Other areas of that business, like we don't have sliding scale.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:24:03.203):
You know,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:24:03.683):
there's certainly like financial equity or accessibility things I could do in that

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:24:07.505):
business that I'm not doing,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:24:08.526):
right?

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:24:08.786):
Because it's not that like every single aspect of it

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:24:12.067):
is deprogrammed or fixed or as radical as possible.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:24:18.043):
It's also an ecosystem, right?

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:24:19.696):
So there are so many different elements that go into a business.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:24:22.539):
But again, businesses are places that we can build worlds.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:24:26.244):
And that's what makes them such beautiful sites for liberation.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:24:28.949):
So I wanted to

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:24:32.191):
go into part of the book where you talk a little more about money and what you call

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:24:36.395):
the six-figure lie.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:24:37.776):
Because I think a big part of deprogramming a business,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:24:41.078):
it's not just understanding the systems or changing the practices.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:24:47.143):
It's also about letting go of the false promises and the pictures that were painted

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:24:53.509):
for you as possible and realizing that's not really possible.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:24:58.195):
So Becky,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:24:58.915):
I was wondering if you could read a bit for us from this chapter on the six figure

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:25:02.857):
lie.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:25:03.436):
It's chapter six in the book for anyone following along.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:25:06.257):
Could you just read the first two paragraphs of that chapter and then share

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:25:09.637):
anything else you want to say about the six figure lie at that point?

Becky Mollenkamp (00:25:12.520):
Yeah.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:25:14.618):
The first time I crossed six figures in my business, I expected the heavens to part.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:25:18.899):
I expected certainty, relief, safety, maybe even a hint of arrival.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:25:24.005):
In fact,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:25:24.505):
nothing really changed other than getting a lot easier to be a perfect capitalist

Becky Mollenkamp (00:25:28.448):
consumer.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:25:29.689):
I could buy nicer things without checking my bank balance and take off on twice

Becky Mollenkamp (00:25:34.033):
yearly beach vacations.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:25:35.994):
But my nervous system, same wreck.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:25:38.656):
My relationship to work, same anxiety.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:25:41.438):
My belief that one wrong move could send it all crashing down, somehow even louder.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:25:46.982):
Now there was more to protect and more to lose.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:25:49.704):
The stakes got higher, but the ground beneath me stayed just as unstable.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:25:54.495):
And I would say one thing about that is I think I could probably at this point

Becky Mollenkamp (00:25:59.576):
change it from the six figure lie to the seven figure lie.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:26:02.417):
Cause I feel like now we've moved the goalpost so much that six figures is like,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:26:06.818):
it hardly even feels like the thing to aspire to.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:26:08.819):
But in my life at the time where I was, that was that thing.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:26:13.382):
Right.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:26:13.660):
But yeah, it's, it's this never ending thing.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:26:18.522):
And you know,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:26:18.902):
it's so funny,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:26:19.402):
Amelia,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:26:19.682):
cause I was literally just before this at lunch with somebody talking about the

Becky Mollenkamp (00:26:22.443):
book and book sales.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:26:24.362):
And as the time of recording this,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:26:25.643):
the book isn't even actually officially out yet,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:26:28.105):
but it is available for purchase on my website.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:26:29.866):
And I've told people when I wrote the book,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:26:32.329):
my goal,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:26:33.008):
my number one and only goal,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:26:34.589):
only stated goal was I wanted to be a published author because I wanted everything

Becky Mollenkamp (00:26:38.512):
else to be gravy.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:26:39.534):
I'm a published author.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:26:40.394):
So everything else now is gravy.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:26:42.236):
And yet,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:26:42.775):
because of all of this conditioning to want more and more and more,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:26:47.139):
I can feel my brain doing the work it does saying,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:26:49.982):
wait a minute.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:26:51.022):
But I really, why not sell 100 books or 500 books or 1,000 books or whatever, right?

Becky Mollenkamp (00:26:56.620):
I can feel...

Becky Mollenkamp (00:26:58.022):
that finish line changing even when i was clear with myself what the finish line is

Becky Mollenkamp (00:27:02.987):
i've reached the finish line i can feel good and the same thing happens in our

Becky Mollenkamp (00:27:06.870):
business with whatever that goal line is that we set when we are still when we

Becky Mollenkamp (00:27:10.694):
haven't deprogrammed talking about the deprogramming and even after we've tried

Becky Mollenkamp (00:27:14.737):
deprogramming and because you can deprogram all you want you go out you breathe the

Becky Mollenkamp (00:27:18.721):
air you're breathing in more capitalism so you got to do the work again and then

Becky Mollenkamp (00:27:22.104):
you take another breath you got to do the work again it doesn't end

Becky Mollenkamp (00:27:24.879):
And so, yeah, I could hit six figures and suddenly it doesn't feel like quite enough.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:27:30.081):
And now it needs to be mid six figures, high six figures.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:27:33.962):
Now I need to hit seven figures.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:27:36.383):
And now you see people talking about eight figure businesses and how to run it.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:27:40.204):
When does it end?

Becky Mollenkamp (00:27:41.364):
It doesn't.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:27:42.004):
It never does.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:27:43.645):
It never will.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:27:44.585):
And I think that's the problem.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:27:45.685):
So many people I hear are like, well, I'll do this when.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:27:50.068):
I'll feel good when.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:27:51.947):
If I could just get to this then.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:27:54.346):
I always want to honor that there is truth to that to a degree.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:27:58.069):
We all deserve and should have our basic human needs met.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:28:02.872):
None of us should have to worry about where we're sleeping.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:28:04.854):
Can we eat?

Becky Mollenkamp (00:28:05.834):
Can my kid get a decent education?

Becky Mollenkamp (00:28:07.735):
Can I, if I get cancer tomorrow, will I be able to take care of that without losing my home?

Becky Mollenkamp (00:28:11.858):
Right.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:28:12.145):
Okay.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:28:12.298):
So absolutely.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:28:14.680):
When we have enough to meet those needs,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:28:16.961):
those foundational needs to keep us safe and healthy and

Becky Mollenkamp (00:28:21.838):
Beyond that,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:28:22.518):
and studies have shown this,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:28:24.219):
there isn't a more that suddenly changes how you actually feel,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:28:28.242):
your happiness level,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:28:29.803):
right?

Becky Mollenkamp (00:28:29.963):
How much you love yourself.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:28:31.785):
Those things don't change because of all of these other measures.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:28:35.708):
But we keep convincing ourselves they will.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:28:38.110):
And then we hit the milestone that we thought would do it, and it doesn't.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:28:40.752):
And instead of adjusting,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:28:41.913):
saying,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:28:42.473):
oh,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:28:43.095):
maybe the milestone wasn't the problem,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:28:44.675):
we just set a new milestone.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:28:46.696):
I love what you write in that same part of the book where you say,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:28:50.665):
What actually changed my life wasn't money.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:28:53.248):
It was unlearning the belief that I could buy my way out of fear.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:28:57.407):
I began to see that no matter how much we earn,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:28:59.468):
we're never safe inside a system built on precarity.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:29:02.349):
Six figures didn't change me.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:29:03.870):
Liberation did.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:29:05.883):
And that is such a mic drop moment for me because I feel like more than anything,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:29:12.506):
honestly,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:29:13.746):
starting my own business was like a deep portal through the transformation of that

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:29:19.869):
understanding.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:29:21.129):
Like no longer performing wage labor for a boss who didn't give a shit about me and

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:29:27.592):
would never give me a raise or pay me a living amount of money.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:29:31.710):
Because I was not like you.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:29:32.691):
I was not successful at the corporate ladder.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:29:34.373):
I did not make enough money ever.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:29:36.115):
I was in grad school, a chronic under earner, and I couldn't fight my way out of that cycle.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:29:42.263):
And I decided to start my own business to try something different.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:29:47.228):
And I was able to create a little window where I had some financial space to figure that out.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:29:52.442):
And then I started doing it.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:29:54.384):
And then I hit this other problem that you're describing here.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:29:56.605):
Then it was like, oh, it's working.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:29:58.046):
Now I'm making money.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:29:59.087):
Now I should just keep making more money.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:00.211):
And then there should be more money.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:01.331):
And then,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:01.769):
oh,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:01.989):
I've already hit my earning goal for this year,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:03.510):
but I'm going to do a whole nother big launch at the end of the year just to see if

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:05.712):
I can make more money.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:07.293):
And even this year in my business,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:08.874):
I have intentionally decided to make less or I've intentionally let go of the

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:13.137):
biggest revenue generating side of my business in general.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:17.323):
And I'm still in these conversations with myself of like,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:19.485):
okay,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:19.767):
Amelia,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:20.385):
are you going to do that offering over the summer just because you did it last

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:22.827):
summer and it sold well?

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:23.708):
Or are you going to actually take the summer off this year?

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:26.410):
And my partner and I have had multiple conversations where I'm like,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:29.232):
I need you to not let me do this.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:31.378):
I need you to hold me too.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:33.476):
I know.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:34.417):
But it's this balance.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:35.397):
It's between the security and the fear,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:38.059):
between this belief that money is security,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:41.042):
this fear that there will never be enough of it or something will happen or the

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:44.024):
bottom will fall out over and over again.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:47.505):
And what liberation teaches us is that it's not,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:50.448):
or it shouldn't be on any one of us to provide for all of our needs financially.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:55.733):
And that,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:56.614):
you know,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:56.893):
I always go back to the slogan,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:58.175):
like we keep us safe,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:30:59.675):
which is both about interactions with the police state and also about our finances,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:31:05.259):
about how we provide resources for a community,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:31:08.121):
how that should never lie on any one person's shoulders.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:31:12.044):
And so...

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:31:13.655):
Yeah,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:31:13.795):
there's something about just the way you broke down the six-figure lie that I found

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:31:17.436):
really compelling.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:31:18.318):
And I agree with you.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:31:20.937):
What's funny to me is now we're being sold the seven-figure or the eight-figure business.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:31:25.259):
But I don't actually think that's because there are suddenly so many six-figure

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:31:29.940):
businesses out there that we've moved the needle.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:31:32.381):
I'm still seeing so many people in my world struggle to make...

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:31:36.084):
$30,000 in their business, $50,000.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:31:38.285):
I don't know all that many people who've hit the six-figure mark within their first

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:31:42.449):
few years or longer.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:31:44.692):
And so to me,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:31:45.813):
watching that shift happen in real time has also just been such a clue at the lie

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:31:50.458):
and the lengths people will go to to try to perpetuate that lie.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:31:54.894):
Well,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:31:55.054):
that's true,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:31:55.475):
too,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:31:55.655):
because I think those selling those things at some point,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:31:59.038):
the six figure thing,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:31:59.979):
they've sold it and it's become stale.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:32:01.680):
And now they have to move that so that they have something new to sell so that they

Becky Mollenkamp (00:32:07.205):
can sell more and more and more to keep hitting their continued goalposts.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:32:12.030):
So that is very interesting, not to mention, you know, cost of living and things like that.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:32:16.194):
I can.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:32:17.106):
when a home a medium home median home prices you know half a million dollars six

Becky Mollenkamp (00:32:21.410):
figures doesn't sound like it used to even if it actually for most people would be

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:32:24.753):
incredibly meaningful yeah no exactly it's just like I think the gap between you

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:32:31.418):
know most people's reality and the aspiration of what they should want is just

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:32:35.081):
growing wider and wider and it does not help that the prices of things are also

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:32:39.405):
going up and up but like nothing about

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:32:43.137):
people pointing you toward a seven figure business,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:32:44.978):
like meaningfully changes your current financial situation.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:32:48.320):
And normally I,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:32:49.801):
when I encounter people in the off the grid space who have gone through a lot of

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:32:53.363):
that,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:32:53.664):
those types of courses or classes,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:32:55.345):
like our first task is always being like,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:32:57.748):
all right,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:32:58.006):
my friend,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:32:58.548):
we got to,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:32:59.452):
We had to pull it back.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:33:00.573):
You're not going to get to a seven figure business if you didn't figure out how to

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:33:02.675):
get to a five figure business first.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:33:04.416):
Exactly.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:33:05.118):
You're not learning.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:33:05.938):
Well,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:33:07.079):
and because so much of it,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:33:08.540):
when you actually dig into a lot of those things,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:33:10.622):
so much of it is quote unquote mindset stuff that they're showing you.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:33:14.725):
Because again, it is all through this privilege lens.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:33:17.528):
When you see the people that are offering these,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:33:19.049):
most of these are folks who have a lot of privilege that they don't

Becky Mollenkamp (00:33:23.574):
share,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:33:24.414):
they don't talk about,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:33:25.596):
they don't acknowledge,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:33:26.857):
they don't say that it played any role in anything.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:33:29.581):
And they really have convinced themselves of this sort of American dream thing of

Becky Mollenkamp (00:33:33.205):
pull yourself up by your own bootstraps,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:33:34.788):
whatever,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:33:35.568):
that they built this thing.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:33:37.070):
And so if they did it, you can too.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:33:39.273):
Right.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:33:39.553):
And so they're not teaching you

Becky Mollenkamp (00:33:42.086):
fundamental anything they're just teaching you like how to start thinking like them

Becky Mollenkamp (00:33:46.713):
as if you just if you just start thinking like them it'll change everything for you

Becky Mollenkamp (00:33:50.358):
without any of like the fundamentals of your life needing to change when the truth

Becky Mollenkamp (00:33:54.304):
is the things that need to change are the fundamentals of your life not the way

Becky Mollenkamp (00:33:56.768):
you're

Becky Mollenkamp (00:33:56.928):
you're thinking about them that is that can be a piece again but it is such a small

Becky Mollenkamp (00:34:01.350):
piece and it's not the piece that's keeping 99.99% of people from getting to six or

Becky Mollenkamp (00:34:07.173):
seven or eight figures it's not about what they're thinking it's about like really

Becky Mollenkamp (00:34:11.015):
fundamental things like do they have a savings account right do they know how to

Becky Mollenkamp (00:34:14.636):
actually set up a business do they know how to like create an offer and fulfill

Becky Mollenkamp (00:34:19.419):
that offer like really fundamental stuff that they're not getting from those places

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:34:24.701):
yeah no 100% like

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:34:27.294):
fixing your money mindset in no way like tells you how to create and market an

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:34:32.436):
offer which is like more the fundamental thing needed for a business to make money

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:34:36.078):
yeah and it's not that you don't need both like you've said i've watched people

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:34:39.799):
create and market an offer but because of their what we might call money mindset

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:34:44.581):
issues it hasn't worked or like often visibility struggles like there's a lot of

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:34:48.463):
inner work we need to do on the way to having a successful business as well but i

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:34:53.205):
agree with you it's not like the only thing to do and

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:34:57.009):
For what it's worth,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:34:57.608):
something that's been really helpful for me over the past few years to liberate

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:35:00.810):
myself and my own business is I've just stopped signing up for stuff where I can

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:35:05.113):
suss out that what they're teaching is like,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:35:06.954):
here's how I did it.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:35:07.875):
I'm going to teach you how to do it how I did it.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:35:10.155):
I've really tried to break up with the I did this so you can too thing.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:35:15.765):
And even though,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:35:16.605):
of course,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:35:17.106):
I talk about my own business and the way I do things a lot on my podcast and

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:35:20.709):
otherwise,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:35:22.052):
I really try my best.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:35:24.273):
And I'm sure someone could come with a place I haven't done this and I'm happy to

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:35:27.236):
take accountability for that.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:35:28.037):
But I try very hard not to teach or charge for anything that I have not seen work

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:35:34.184):
for many different people.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:35:36.148):
And that's the way I try to stay in integrity with it because it's like,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:35:38.729):
just because it worked for me,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:35:39.609):
doesn't mean it'll work for anybody else.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:35:41.410):
This is also a beauty of off the grid.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:35:42.890):
And like the interweb is like,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:35:44.031):
it becomes a playground where a lot of us are trying different things and I can get

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:35:47.992):
sort of proof of concept for a lot of different ideas.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:35:50.913):
But yeah,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:35:51.333):
I just think that whole,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:35:52.293):
like I did this so you can too,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:35:54.254):
it very rarely proves to be the case.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:35:56.835):
I mean, going back to a certain person, I won't name any names, but a gentleman.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:36:02.153):
who is a white man who sells who does market a lot of marketing things and this was

Becky Mollenkamp (00:36:07.996):
years ago i wrote about him you probably find the blog where i would because i was

Becky Mollenkamp (00:36:11.058):
very angry and just this whole it would boil down to the same i did this so can you

Becky Mollenkamp (00:36:16.040):
here's just start thinking this way you know basically like the here's the 10

Becky Mollenkamp (00:36:19.942):
habits that i have that change everything and it's like getting up early and just

Becky Mollenkamp (00:36:23.504):
all the same bs that we've seen in lane times right

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:36:26.163):
But what he doesn't talk about,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:36:27.223):
because I did a little deep dive after I saw this,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:36:29.745):
because I was already,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:36:31.428):
like you said,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:36:31.907):
my little,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:36:32.468):
my spidey senses were going up that he may not be telling me the whole story of his

Becky Mollenkamp (00:36:36.371):
life.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:36:36.691):
And I found out he has five kids and a wife who stays at home and more power to her.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:36:42.596):
But that's quite a support system that he has going on that he's not admitting talking about.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:36:46.620):
Yeah,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:36:46.760):
you can get up at 5 a.m.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:36:47.620):
when you don't have to get up with the five kids and get their lunches ready and

Becky Mollenkamp (00:36:50.083):
you're not having to get them out the door and you're not running them to all their

Becky Mollenkamp (00:36:52.184):
things or whatever.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:36:53.385):
And he also has college degrees.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:36:55.546):
Many people can't say that because of a whole host of things that are systemic and

Becky Mollenkamp (00:36:59.947):
go well beyond just they didn't go to college.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:37:02.147):
They didn't have that opportunity.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:37:03.527):
There's a privilege inside that.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:37:05.188):
He came from a family, from what I understand, that was never divorced.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:37:08.609):
Again,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:37:09.309):
no problem with not with having divorced parents,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:37:11.389):
but there's a lot of opportunity that can often come from having a two parent to

Becky Mollenkamp (00:37:15.650):
potentially two income household and a whole bunch of things.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:37:18.431):
And he's also hits every domain.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:37:20.511):
He's white, male, Christian.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:37:23.777):
There was a whole host of things that he,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:37:24.961):
you know,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:37:25.243):
Cishet,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:37:25.986):
that he's hitting that many other people don't have and all the advantages that

Becky Mollenkamp (00:37:28.777):
come with that.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:37:30.389):
It just it aggravates me so much because when you boil it down to if you do these

Becky Mollenkamp (00:37:35.333):
10 things,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:37:35.851):
then you could have the seven figure business that I'm running without

Becky Mollenkamp (00:37:39.212):
acknowledging any of the other things that is so deeply harmful.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:37:43.954):
It's toxic.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:37:44.894):
It's it's reinforcing the systems.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:37:48.356):
And it's also giving such a permission structure to people who also look like him

Becky Mollenkamp (00:37:53.858):
to continue to believe their own lies,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:37:56.959):
to continue to buy into the lie that,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:37:58.920):
oh,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:37:59.040):
that's right.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:38:00.181):
I did this all by myself.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:38:01.723):
And if I'm rich, I am special and I am better.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:38:04.364):
And that,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:38:05.868):
like,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:38:06.265):
I also get really upset about the permission structure that gets baked in for

Becky Mollenkamp (00:38:09.828):
people who share some of those identities and or have also,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:38:13.571):
you know,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:38:14.071):
quote unquote,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:38:14.632):
been self-made without any of that deeper examination.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:38:18.375):
It's just really, really, really toxic.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:38:21.417):
Oh, it so is.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:38:22.358):
I feel myself like, I'm both like nauseated by it.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:38:26.001):
I'm like, oh, so disgusting.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:38:27.282):
And like, I'm like mad.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:38:29.083):
I know.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:38:29.279):
Well, because we also see it all the time and it's so infuriating.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:38:32.801):
It's just so infuriating.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:38:33.681):
But that's the system that we live inside and all we can do,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:38:36.503):
again,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:38:36.703):
like I can spend my time being angry and I do,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:38:38.944):
believe me.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:38:39.884):
But I can also,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:38:41.045):
here's the part where there is some amount of mindset is like,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:38:43.826):
I can also say,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:38:45.367):
okay,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:38:45.827):
that is true and it's frustrating and it makes me so mad.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:38:48.488):
And what can I do?

Becky Mollenkamp (00:38:50.289):
What are the levers that I can control in my little one, you know, one small block of area here?

Becky Mollenkamp (00:38:56.893):
What can I do?

Becky Mollenkamp (00:38:58.276):
to reject that because I'm not going to change him.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:39:01.638):
I can get as mad as I wanted him.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:39:03.099):
I can point it all out.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:39:04.040):
And then they don't,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:39:04.940):
you know,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:39:05.380):
they don't care because they're just at a different place with their value set.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:39:10.363):
So what do I do inside of my little corner of the world?

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:39:13.907):
Yeah.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:39:14.626):
Yeah, very much so.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:39:16.827):
And I think that it's incredibly important that especially folks with

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:39:21.924):
access and privilege in our society are thinking systemically are acknowledging

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:39:26.025):
that are accounting for that,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:39:27.646):
and how they work and build their businesses.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:39:31.188):
And also,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:39:31.927):
even if you're trying to do that work,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:39:33.387):
if you don't recognize the lies of these narratives,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:39:36.648):
you're going to get really wrapped up and stuck really fast,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:39:39.169):
just like you shared in your own experience,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:39:40.589):
Becky,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:39:40.909):
right?

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:39:41.129):
Like,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:39:41.569):
you started to understand an account for privilege,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:39:43.230):
but then the narratives had to go to and I think that that is like,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:39:47.839):
That is the work of it.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:39:48.740):
And that's the work that you chart in the book.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:39:51.122):
The narrative is what supports the system.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:39:53.064):
It's what keeps the system going.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:39:54.605):
So yeah, we have to combat that.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:39:56.867):
And I say that exactly as you said, fully honoring that I have been a part of it.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:40:02.190):
Because I think it would be very unfair and gross for me to be like,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:40:07.352):
I had it all figured out and always have.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:40:08.773):
No, I've done it.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:40:10.293):
I've done all the icky stuff too.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:40:12.234):
And it's really important to know that you can change.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:40:14.035):
Just because you've done those things doesn't mean you have to just go into a shame

Becky Mollenkamp (00:40:17.877):
spiral and stay there or whatever.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:40:19.557):
No, it's an invitation to change.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:40:22.338):
It's an invitation to say, okay, I can do things differently now.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:40:25.640):
Yeah, the question becomes like, what now and what going forward?

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:40:29.975):
alongside the accounting for the past and the apologies where needed and the,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:40:35.540):
you know,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:40:36.019):
recompense and reparations that might need to be made in that way.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:40:39.381):
I've definitely seen some people recently maneuvering in our online business space

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:40:43.304):
where they're sort of like trying to rehab their image and they claim they're doing

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:40:47.527):
sorts of apologies that I'm like,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:40:49.028):
I think you're just saying the same thing in different colors.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:40:52.350):
Before seeing the same person because I saw something very recently that had me

Becky Mollenkamp (00:40:56.452):
scratching my head a little.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:40:58.498):
I would imagine so.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:40:59.437):
Okay.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:40:59.759):
Sorry, listeners.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:41:00.398):
I'm going to be vague.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:41:01.118):
I'm not trying to call anybody specific out, but it does happen.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:41:04.099):
Like sometimes also you see people rebrand in a way where they're claiming they've

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:41:09.221):
gone through these transformations.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:41:10.681):
And I try in all good faith to like approach that with belief that that's what they've done.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:41:16.483):
But sometimes you like scratch the surface a tiny bit and you're like,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:41:18.764):
this is the same old,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:41:19.585):
same old,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:41:20.504):
just in a different font as the kids say.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:41:23.705):
So,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:41:24.323):
Becky,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:41:24.643):
there's so much more I want to talk to you about in your book,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:41:26.243):
which makes me really glad that we have a book club planned,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:41:29.305):
because in the book club,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:41:30.485):
I really want to talk to you about collaboration as rebellion,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:41:34.167):
which is one of the chapters.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:41:36.269):
Honestly,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:41:36.629):
the thing that I probably have had the most admiration for you for the longest time

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:41:41.531):
is that I do not see any other business owner out there,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:41:44.553):
including myself.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:41:46.455):
centering interdependence and collaboration and cross-promotion to the extent that

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:41:51.339):
you always are.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:41:52.180):
Your work in the Feminist Podcasters Collective,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:41:54.401):
the way that you brought people into this book launch,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:41:56.503):
like every layer of your work,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:41:58.185):
I always see you working with other people,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:42:00.846):
breaking down the myth of the solo entrepreneur,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:42:03.308):
even as you are primarily a tiny one-person business.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:42:05.910):
Like it's so impressive and exciting to me.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:42:08.592):
And I want to talk to you more about it.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:42:10.894):
It's a little bit in the book too, but I really want to discuss that in our book club.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:42:14.016):
I'm excited about that because you mentioned earlier...

Becky Mollenkamp (00:42:16.545):
And we didn't get to go there.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:42:17.566):
But you said something very much about like the ways that we make this change is we

Becky Mollenkamp (00:42:22.490):
have to recognize that even when it comes to earning money,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:42:25.672):
that it doesn't have to be a one person show and that we're we're meant to work

Becky Mollenkamp (00:42:29.656):
collectively because that I have learned is the key to everything.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:42:34.940):
I'm very excited about the collective like that more than anything has what's

Becky Mollenkamp (00:42:38.383):
changed my life the most radically most recently.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:42:41.945):
What a beautiful note to end on and

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:42:44.317):
Yes, I think that's where we will start our conversation in the book club.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:42:47.459):
So folks, if you want to hear that, just head to the show notes and RSVP.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:42:52.003):
Again, it is happening live on Zoom on May 20th, I believe at 1130 Central, 1230 Eastern.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:42:59.888):
So it's a little kind of lunchtime book club that we're hosting.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:43:04.092):
You do not have to have read the book to join us.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:43:06.193):
You can just come.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:43:06.974):
Although I do, of course, recommend buying the book to support Becky's work.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:43:10.656):
We are both self-published writers.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:43:12.257):
If you do not buy our books, no one will.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:43:16.418):
Not no one, but like buying the book does matter, especially when you're self-published.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:43:20.599):
So if you can get a copy, head to the show notes, grab your copy of Liberate Your Business.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:43:25.140):
You can use the code Amelia for $5 off if you buy it from Becky's website.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:43:29.837):
That will not work if you're buying from a retailer like Amazon or something else.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:43:32.558):
You got to buy it directly from Becky to use the code,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:43:35.020):
but grab the book,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:43:35.881):
use the code,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:43:36.620):
meet us at the book club.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:43:38.001):
If you RSVP,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:43:39.041):
you'll get the recording if you can't attend live,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:43:40.922):
but we would love to see you there.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:43:43.243):
And Becky, can you tell folks what is the URL?

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:43:46.485):
Where can they find the book and you online before we head out?

Becky Mollenkamp (00:43:49.646):
BeckyMollenCamp.com.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:43:51.107):
It's right on the homepage or slash book will take you to the page.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:43:53.808):
Also just want to say, ask your library because it's available.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:43:57.310):
Libraries can request it.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:43:59.011):
And I would say,

Becky Mollenkamp (00:43:59.975):
die to see it in libraries like that would light me up more than i price it as

Becky Mollenkamp (00:44:03.537):
cheap as they would let you to get it into libraries so like i make nothing but i

Becky Mollenkamp (00:44:07.438):
don't care that because talk about legacy that will live on and on and get so many

Becky Mollenkamp (00:44:11.680):
reads so if you if you can't buy it yourself please request it from your library

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:44:15.762):
beautiful i love it yes the library circulation for my own book as well has been

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:44:20.364):
such a dream and legacy is the other thing i really wanted to talk to you about at

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:44:23.865):
the book club so

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:44:25.795):
Thank you so much,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:44:26.255):
Becky,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:44:26.515):
again,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:44:26.736):
for making time to speak with me and for sharing your book with the world and

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:44:30.198):
offering off the grid folks a discount.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:44:33.279):
We will see you all hopefully on the 20th book in hand,

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:44:37.382):
ready to chat about community collaboration and legacy.

Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:44:41.204):
And until then, folks, you can find us off the grid and in the clubhouse.

(00:00:02.663):
Hello, hello, and welcome to the Liberate Your Business Book Club.

(00:00:07.044):
I am your host,

(00:00:07.745):
Amelia Hruby of Off the Grid Podcast,

(00:00:09.765):
and today I am so excited to be joined by the wonderful author,

(00:00:14.107):
Becky Mollenkamp.

(00:00:15.807):
Becky, thanks so much for being here and joining us for this book club.

(00:00:19.588):
Thank you for having me.

(00:00:21.409):
As some people may be able to relate,

(00:00:23.090):
it all feels a little like,

(00:00:25.370):
I feel very on spotlight,

(00:00:26.551):
which is good,

(00:00:27.351):
but also like,

(00:00:28.811):
oh,

(00:00:29.151):
I don't know,

(00:00:29.732):
but I'm excited and thank you.

(00:00:32.035):
Of course.

(00:00:32.795):
This is my reminder to spotlight you and me.

(00:00:35.796):
Can I spotlight us both, I think?

(00:00:38.557):
Yes.

(00:00:39.738):
Yes.

(00:00:40.298):
Now we're both spotlight.

(00:00:42.779):
Well,

(00:00:43.980):
I loved talking to you about your book for a clubhouse episode,

(00:00:48.301):
and I wanted more space to dive in.

(00:00:50.870):
and to host a community conversation around this book,

(00:00:53.072):
because I think the topics you're talking about here are so important.

(00:00:57.015):
You know,

(00:00:57.215):
the subtitle of your book is a radical guide for entrepreneurs building inside a

(00:01:01.438):
broken system.

(00:01:02.559):
And the reality is that that's

(00:01:04.701):
all of us.

(00:01:05.622):
And even when I was reading your book,

(00:01:07.764):
you know,

(00:01:07.984):
I'm somebody I would say I consider I've done a lot of unpacking,

(00:01:11.066):
unlearning,

(00:01:12.087):
liberating.

(00:01:13.108):
But even as I was reading the book, I was like, Oh, I haven't thought about that.

(00:01:16.070):
Oh, that's something I could work on.

(00:01:17.592):
So I just really appreciate how much is in here.

(00:01:21.395):
And I wanted to start with just like a very open ended question before we get into

(00:01:25.779):
some of the specifics.

(00:01:26.919):
But for anyone here who is just getting to know you in this book, could you talk about

(00:01:31.695):
what motivated you to write it and why now for this project?

(00:01:37.959):
Why now?

(00:01:38.739):
I'll start with because it's time-based.

(00:01:41.441):
I turned 50 and many people can relate to whatever the age being,

(00:01:45.443):
but certain milestones where you're like,

(00:01:47.524):
I thought I would have done this thing by this age.

(00:01:50.105):
And I wrote my first book when I was in fourth grade, which is the age my son is now.

(00:01:55.709):
And it was a little thing my teacher bound.

(00:01:57.089):
And I remember that feeling of getting my first, that book,

(00:02:00.252):
and holding it in my hands and being able to share with people and the pride and

(00:02:03.233):
that feeling of accomplishment.

(00:02:04.934):
And as I was turning 50 and I was like, I really thought by 50, I would have published a book.

(00:02:09.035):
I really thought I was going to do that by then.

(00:02:11.136):
So then I was like,

(00:02:11.716):
well,

(00:02:11.856):
you know,

(00:02:12.076):
if I publish it before I turned 51,

(00:02:14.457):
in my head,

(00:02:15.097):
it was like,

(00:02:15.437):
well,

(00:02:15.577):
that's still kind of counts as doing it by 50.

(00:02:18.038):
So the timing,

(00:02:18.778):
the pressures,

(00:02:19.398):
it was really more the timing than anything because I have,

(00:02:22.539):
I was approached once before by a publisher about potentially writing a book.

(00:02:26.041):
At that time, I'm so glad that didn't happen because it was way more

(00:02:30.897):
mindset focus,

(00:02:31.598):
like the stuff that now I'm pushing back on a lot,

(00:02:34.520):
where it was a snapshot of a different time of where I was.

(00:02:37.542):
But this snapshot,

(00:02:38.503):
because I really feel like a book,

(00:02:39.704):
especially a nonfiction kind of book,

(00:02:40.945):
but honestly,

(00:02:41.425):
any book is really a snapshot of an author at a given moment,

(00:02:44.608):
because we change and evolve and grow.

(00:02:46.789):
And I don't think the book I would write in five years would be the same as this book.

(00:02:50.772):
And certainly what I would have written five years ago wouldn't have been.

(00:02:53.494):
And part of my

(00:02:54.893):
process this year was giving myself that permission to allow it to be a snapshot to

(00:02:58.035):
say,

(00:02:58.595):
what is it that I want to write about right now?

(00:03:00.236):
Where is my passion now?

(00:03:01.457):
What do I care about?

(00:03:02.758):
I decided I wanted to write a book.

(00:03:03.938):
So what's it going to be?

(00:03:04.959):
I knew it would be nonfiction.

(00:03:06.019):
I knew it was going to be business.

(00:03:07.080):
And I figured it would be these things I've been working on.

(00:03:09.962):
So the biggest thing was giving myself permission to say, this isn't the book.

(00:03:14.104):
It doesn't have to be the best book.

(00:03:16.205):
It doesn't have to be a bestseller.

(00:03:17.526):
It just needs to be a snapshot of where I'm at and something that feels like some

(00:03:21.508):
legacy that I can leave behind and say,

(00:03:25.213):
At this moment in my life, this is what I stood for.

(00:03:30.335):
I love this answer so much because it weaves in many of the principles in the book, right?

(00:03:36.137):
You talk about releasing perfectionism,

(00:03:38.918):
which I think lends us to that sense of like,

(00:03:40.898):
if I'm going to write a book,

(00:03:41.739):
it has to be the book,

(00:03:42.979):
the perfect book for all the people for all time,

(00:03:45.080):
right?

(00:03:45.641):
that can really block us since I love hearing like letting yourself be in this

(00:03:50.585):
moment was part of the journey for you and then you mentioned that legacy piece at

(00:03:53.888):
the end too which is also one of the chapters of the book about legacy instead of

(00:03:58.611):
empire so I always appreciate just when what's on the page comes through and like

(00:04:05.296):
who the author is and how they speak and how they live out the values of what

(00:04:09.219):
they're writing

(00:04:10.598):
and I wanted to reflect that back to you.

(00:04:12.598):
So thank you so much for writing the book.

(00:04:14.799):
I'm glad you're saying that.

(00:04:17.959):
So I have three questions for you that I wanted to ask about before we open it up

(00:04:23.681):
to everyone who's here to ask questions.

(00:04:26.621):
And those three questions are about mindset,

(00:04:29.442):
marketing and community,

(00:04:31.342):
all of which come up in the book many times.

(00:04:34.123):
So we'll start with the mindset

(00:04:37.801):
Maybe we'll call it Well,

(00:04:39.502):
I should have called the chapters though That's great I like mindset trap And,

(00:04:44.224):
you know,

(00:04:44.804):
I'm someone who has definitely benefited a lot from mindset work I know that you

(00:04:48.385):
use it You used it previously a lot in your coaching practice But I'm sure some now

(00:04:52.187):
as well But I wanted to ask you about this kind of mindset trap Like,

(00:04:56.308):
what is wrong with certain types of mindset work Particularly money mindset work

(00:05:02.891):
And why did you stop centering that in your coaching?

(00:05:06.920):
and that was definitely where I was a decade ago.

(00:05:10.743):
I don't have a problem with mindset.

(00:05:11.925):
I think mindset's a really important thing.

(00:05:13.466):
I think how we relate to the world around us,

(00:05:15.688):
what we think about ourselves,

(00:05:17.890):
about others,

(00:05:18.490):
those things all matter and there are things about that that we do have agency over

(00:05:22.454):
and so that's important.

(00:05:24.097):
but unfortunately most of,

(00:05:25.438):
not most,

(00:05:25.999):
a lot of mindset work that's out there and I do see it beginning to change which is

(00:05:29.402):
lovely but it tends to look at mindset as the answer and not a piece of a puzzle

(00:05:36.550):
that it is like putting everything onto the individual if you were just to think

(00:05:40.554):
differently then your circumstances would be different.

(00:05:44.425):
without understanding how we exist inside, like no one exists in a vacuum.

(00:05:48.347):
We all exist inside of the systems that are operating around us.

(00:05:52.689):
And unfortunately,

(00:05:53.329):
very often that advice that we see is coming from people who hold an awful lot of

(00:05:56.831):
identity privilege.

(00:05:58.132):
Very often they're white, very often they're male.

(00:06:00.393):
And it's one thing to say for a white man to say,

(00:06:03.975):
well,

(00:06:04.535):
just think about this differently and your outcomes will be different.

(00:06:08.397):
And to say that to each other, have asked.

(00:06:11.175):
But the real problem is when it becomes this prescriptive thing that is supposed to

(00:06:14.458):
work for all folks.

(00:06:15.639):
It worked for me, so it should work for you.

(00:06:17.360):
And I was guilty of this, and I talk about that in the book.

(00:06:20.623):
And my circumstances as a white woman are very different than a black woman or a

(00:06:24.706):
trans woman,

(00:06:26.188):
a disabled woman.

(00:06:27.549):
There are structural realities that affect that person's life that no amount of

(00:06:31.752):
mindset can change.

(00:06:33.594):
So we have to be really careful that when we talk about mindset, it is a piece of

(00:06:37.897):
puzzle of the work,

(00:06:39.359):
but the systems don't change just because you change the way you think about them.

(00:06:43.743):
And so we have to always do that work inside of and where I'm at now.

(00:06:48.247):
And what I advocate for is that when we do mindset work,

(00:06:50.850):
it's not saying we can't,

(00:06:52.471):
but it's always bringing it back to how do the systems around you affect the ways

(00:06:57.276):
you're thinking and that you're feeling?

(00:06:59.338):
And what of those are things that you have

(00:07:02.066):
agency over right now and what are the things you don't because some of the no

(00:07:06.468):
black person gets to just say well i'm going to think stop i'm going to stop

(00:07:09.370):
believing in racism and then it won't then it won't happen it's not going to affect

(00:07:12.171):
me that is not real and instead we need to say then how do you protect yourself

(00:07:19.014):
care for yourself inside of a world where racism continues to show up there's still

(00:07:23.656):
places where there's agency inside of that but the agency isn't to pretend that it

(00:07:27.998):
doesn't exist that isn't that's disingenuous and it's harmful

(00:07:32.838):
yeah yeah thank you so much for laying all of that out I think it's so important

(00:07:37):
and you know I haven't talked about this anywhere publicly because it feels a

(00:07:41.762):
little touchy but I have personally noticed this spring summer that there's been an

(00:07:47.744):
uptick in like the money mindset work is making a resurgence and it's doing that

(00:07:52.827):
because the economy is getting worse and people's businesses are struggling more

(00:07:56.948):
and

(00:07:59.467):
The, you know, we many of us want more money, perhaps.

(00:08:04.689):
But like, the answer to that is not mindset work.

(00:08:07.090):
Like you cannot, your mindset cannot fix the economy, right?

(00:08:10.751):
Your mindset will not resolve the supply chain crisis.

(00:08:14.473):
That's not part of it.

(00:08:16.593):
It's not going to change the very real circumstances of the number of black women who have lost

(00:08:21.659):
their employment in the last year, right?

(00:08:24.180):
Yeah, that doesn't change that.

(00:08:25.280):
If you start just thinking,

(00:08:26.720):
you know,

(00:08:26.920):
I love Paula said,

(00:08:27.520):
like somebody says,

(00:08:28.040):
just choose not to participate in the recession economy.

(00:08:30.561):
Like, that'd be lovely.

(00:08:33.521):
What a lovely thing.

(00:08:34.502):
But yeah, that's not real.

(00:08:35.602):
Yeah.

(00:08:36.782):
And you're right.

(00:08:37.142):
People see an opportunity.

(00:08:38.963):
They see a crisis as an opportunity to make money.

(00:08:42.343):
And I think that is, that's going into the marketing stuff, which I know you want to talk about.

(00:08:46.344):
So it's perfect because that is where we're talking about these really

(00:08:51.906):
extractive and manipulative tactics that are toxic and harmful.

(00:08:57.915):
And so when you see,

(00:08:59.978):
gee,

(00:09:00.278):
when the economy goes down and people are feeling the acute pain of money,

(00:09:05.586):
suddenly we're

(00:09:06.207):
We're going to come at them with these programs that promise them a solution by

(00:09:10.654):
just thinking differently.

(00:09:11.535):
And boy, wouldn't that be nice?

(00:09:12.496):
Because that feels when you are at your most challenge and living in a capitalist

(00:09:17.524):
world,

(00:09:17.984):
for many of us,

(00:09:19.046):
money is the thing that causes that most acute

(00:09:21.229):
And I'm going to be out of this acute distress that I've been in.

(00:09:24.010):
Of course people buy it, right?

(00:09:25.051):
Especially when it's priced just at the right kind of price point that they can

(00:09:28.592):
somehow justify with these promises of returns.

(00:09:30.033):
It is emotional manipulation

(00:09:51.633):
and it is not okay.

(00:09:55.616):
Yes.

(00:09:56.377):
I just feel like say it louder for the people in the back.

(00:09:58.538):
It's so not okay.

(00:10:00.360):
And it's rampant,

(00:10:01.901):
particularly in our,

(00:10:03.062):
you know,

(00:10:03.923):
sort of industry of online business,

(00:10:05.804):
you know,

(00:10:06.044):
not in the perhaps corner we inhabit,

(00:10:07.746):
but in the broader landscape,

(00:10:09.006):
absolutely.

(00:10:10.508):
And I see Stephanie's mentioning in the chat that the Real Housewives of Beverly

(00:10:13.530):
Hills just had a scandal around money mindset because Amanda Francis has been on

(00:10:17.553):
the show.

(00:10:18.494):
And I want to highly recommend

(00:10:20.378):
the Duped podcast where Maggie and Michelle have broken that down.

(00:10:26.200):
They had a great episode on Amanda Francis as well as one on income claim marketing

(00:10:31.162):
that they're talking about has become more rampant than ever as part of the same

(00:10:35.604):
cycle,

(00:10:36.204):
right?

(00:10:36.645):
So- Okay, I'm gonna be, that's what I'm doing after this.

(00:10:40.866):
The whole Amanda Francis thing, I had lots of comments on social media about it.

(00:10:43.607):
So I'm very excited.

(00:10:44.948):
Yes, they break it down.

(00:10:46.869):
I guess Maggie has like been an Amanda Francis, like-

(00:10:50.469):
critic for a really long time.

(00:10:52.530):
And so like knows every single step of that journey.

(00:10:55.491):
So highly recommend that episode.

(00:10:57.091):
I will drop the link in the chat.

(00:10:59.032):
And the best part is the guess who was the person leading the charge on the show to

(00:11:03.833):
call out this white woman who made her money in this very manipulative way we're

(00:11:07.494):
talking about.

(00:11:08.255):
It was the black woman and leave it to Bose who is like,

(00:11:12.216):
so basically you're saying you're selling,

(00:11:15.217):
you're telling people how to make,

(00:11:16.557):
you're making money by telling people how to make money.

(00:11:18.908):
But that's the only way you're making money is by telling people how to make money.

(00:11:21.470):
She's like, it really sounds like a pyramid scheme or something.

(00:11:24.112):
Yeah, it was fantastic.

(00:11:26.574):
Beautiful, beautiful.

(00:11:27.715):
Okay, well, lots to explore and enjoy there.

(00:11:31.578):
And let's let that kind of take us into the marketing question I have for you.

(00:11:35.901):
So there are two really great chapters in your book explicitly about marketing

(00:11:39.925):
practices that were just like over it.

(00:11:42.026):
So you have a chapter called Fuck Funnels and you have a chapter called Fuck Algorithms.

(00:11:45.803):
Could you talk about like what's wrong with those things and why we need to

(00:11:49.326):
liberate ourselves from those marketing methods?

(00:11:51.988):
Yeah.

(00:11:52.509):
I mean,

(00:11:52.969):
I'll start with algorithms because those are like the most in my mind clearly like

(00:11:57.072):
just it's a problem,

(00:11:58.534):
right?

(00:11:59.034):
Funnels,

(00:12:00.075):
there are ways that those things can work in your business and it's more about

(00:12:02.877):
personal needs and understanding that.

(00:12:05.419):
But with algorithm,

(00:12:06.140):
I mean,

(00:12:06.340):
the algorithms and algorithms of oppression,

(00:12:08.442):
which I cite in the book and you can read,

(00:12:09.703):
I mean,

(00:12:10.433):
these things are built by and for largely white men right and they whether

(00:12:16.917):
intentionally or not reproduce the biases of those who have created them and the

(00:12:23.380):
biases that exist in the greater world in which we live and so the algorithms favor

(00:12:29.103):
the voices that are already most likely to be heard and

(00:12:32.952):
give very little attention to or silence the voices who are least likely to be heard.

(00:12:37.493):
And so all that does is continue to perpetuate that cycle.

(00:12:41.294):
When people start to try and tell you,

(00:12:43.735):
again,

(00:12:43.955):
going back to the marketing piece of this,

(00:12:46.035):
solutions to work with these systems to try and sort of manipulate them in your

(00:12:49.796):
favor,

(00:12:50.617):
a lot of what they're trying to sell you is stuff that isn't going to work or is

(00:12:54.698):
going to be very difficult

(00:12:56.098):
for it to work for you because you are operating inside of a system that just is

(00:13:01.539):
not meant to work for you and is often meant to work against you.

(00:13:05.280):
And so trying to learn all the SEO hacks and all of the things,

(00:13:09.141):
again,

(00:13:09.422):
we have to do the things that we have to play inside of the system.

(00:13:12.182):
The system is what it is and we have to operate inside of it.

(00:13:14.763):
But I think all of that is going into it with the knowledge that I can play all the

(00:13:19.304):
SEO games I want and yet if I'm a black woman,

(00:13:23.826):
the chances of those things working for me are not the same as those chances of

(00:13:27.810):
those things working for a white woman or most certainly for a white man right so

(00:13:31.493):
the more marginalized identities you hold and the more your content most especially

(00:13:35.617):
speaks to those things the less likely that all those tricks and tips they're

(00:13:40.341):
trying to sell you are going to work for you it doesn't mean that we can't do the

(00:13:44.745):
things

(00:13:45.760):
you know again like mindset I think there are always things whatever levers you

(00:13:49.141):
have ability to pull pull the levers but I think always know is this lever actually

(00:13:54.403):
made for me am I pulling the same lever as someone else right no because you and I

(00:14:00.486):
pulling that same lever Amelia is going to have a very different result than like

(00:14:03.507):
Stephanie who's in the room pulling that lever a black woman it's just not going to

(00:14:06.428):
be the same and to to not be honest about that is harmful

(00:14:12.150):
and I think we need to be honest with ourselves about it too because what ends up

(00:14:14.953):
happening going back to kind of mindset and the way these things play together is

(00:14:18.496):
when someone who holds marginalized identities is trying to speak to people with

(00:14:22.219):
marginalized identities most especially if they're trying to speak about issues

(00:14:25.862):
very pertinent to people with marginalized identities they go and spend money on

(00:14:30.486):
learning how to build all you know you get all the SEO tricks and then it doesn't

(00:14:33.389):
work for them and what ends up happening is they internalize that as something

(00:14:36.692):
that's wrong with them

(00:14:38.373):
I'm bad I'm wrong I can't figure this out why is everybody else doing it right what

(00:14:42.955):
is what's wrong with me and that's that internalization of a system that was broken

(00:14:47.476):
and was never going to work for you anyway but that's what and then the marketing

(00:14:50.877):
techniques are playing into that constantly of like

(00:14:54.078):
I don't know it's not work for you it works for me look at all these testimonials

(00:14:57.041):
all these other people who say it works for them it must be you there must be

(00:14:59.983):
something wrong with you what you're creating isn't good enough or the way you're

(00:15:02.585):
doing it is wrong or you are wrong and so these things play with each other and

(00:15:07.248):
then just compound right and so we can't dismantle the system today as much as I

(00:15:13.573):
think probably everyone in this room at least would love that right we have to

(00:15:17.416):
operate inside of it but I think there is a lot of freedom liberation that comes

(00:15:21.739):
from

(00:15:22.804):
understanding how the system is rigged so that you can free yourself from some of

(00:15:27.227):
the internalization of that because operating inside of a broken system sucks,

(00:15:32.371):
but operating inside of that broken system and blaming yourself for it is a very

(00:15:36.654):
different experience.

(00:15:37.735):
That really sucks.

(00:15:38.976):
That's where the shame comes in.

(00:15:40.957):
and where we beat ourselves up and where we start to feel like it's us and nothing else.

(00:15:45.658):
And it's different when you can be in that system knowing it's broken and knowing

(00:15:49.259):
you're fighting an uphill battle.

(00:15:50.380):
I would rather be Sisyphus knowing I'm fighting uphill battle than thinking that,

(00:15:55.601):
oh,

(00:15:56.521):
I'm almost there,

(00:15:57.482):
right?

(00:15:58.262):
Because that is where the defeat comes in.

(00:16:03.903):
Yeah, absolutely.

(00:16:06.268):
I just like snaps for all of that everything you just said is so important and I

(00:16:10.011):
agree I would rather what's the question like can we imagine Sisyphus happy it's

(00:16:15.995):
just like do we imagine Sisyphus knows what he's doing

(00:16:20.765):
because if you're just almost at the point of saying,

(00:16:24.068):
well,

(00:16:24.208):
if I have to do this forever,

(00:16:25.149):
I'm going to make it fun.

(00:16:26.049):
I'm bouncing this ball and I'm going to chat with the people around me.

(00:16:29.873):
That's a different experience than thinking, oh, I'm almost there.

(00:16:32.154):
I'm almost there.

(00:16:32.635):
I'm almost there.

(00:16:33.155):
It's got to be just, you know, like that is painful.

(00:16:36.398):
It's sort of the Buddhist philosophy of like suffering versus pain.

(00:16:40.041):
And that is where we do have some amount of internal control over where do I allow

(00:16:44.485):
this broken system to be

(00:16:46.620):
Painful or where do I turn that into suffering, right?

(00:16:49.582):
And it's painful.

(00:16:51.544):
There's no denying it's painful to be inside of a broken system,

(00:16:54.406):
especially the more marginalized identities you hold,

(00:16:57.068):
knowing all of these things.

(00:16:58.749):
But we can then decide, okay, I'm not going to suffer.

(00:17:01.392):
I'm not going to let them make me suffer because of that.

(00:17:04.514):
I will then, look, I'm going to really move you right towards the other things.

(00:17:07.857):
Oh, we didn't get to funnels.

(00:17:09.077):
Okay.

(00:17:09.318):
But I'm going to move towards,

(00:17:10.439):
I'm going to find things like my community that can help me not make this

(00:17:13.341):
suffering.

(00:17:14.442):
I guess I should say about funnels.

(00:17:16.978):
I don't inherently have a problem with funnels.

(00:17:19.360):
The problem is when things become prescriptive, always.

(00:17:23.865):
And we see that people make things prescriptive because it makes it easy to sell.

(00:17:28.690):
If I say I have the perfect three-step funnel or the perfect six, you know, 12 emails,

(00:17:34.515):
that's going to deliver this amount of money,

(00:17:36.676):
then we are more likely to purchase that than somebody who's more nebulous and says

(00:17:41.437):
the truth,

(00:17:42.418):
because the truth is always in the nuance,

(00:17:43.918):
which is this might or might not work for your business.

(00:17:46.659):
Let's figure out the way you show up in the world,

(00:17:49.940):
what feels comfortable for you,

(00:17:51.120):
what your particular set of customers like.

(00:17:53.561):
Let's find something, a model that works and may not even be repeatable.

(00:17:57.202):
It might have to evolve and change over time.

(00:18:00.013):
selling that's real hard nobody wants to buy they want you to say okay if you do

(00:18:03.294):
these three things I'm going to guarantee you're going to get this ROI oh I won't

(00:18:06.015):
guarantee but I'm going to make it sound like you'll get this ROI so those things

(00:18:09.357):
are all easier to sell and it puts us all in this belief that business is supposed

(00:18:13.718):
to just be wash rents repeat right and that again going back to the shame I put in

(00:18:18.500):
the perfect funnel they told me it was the the three steps I needed I was supposed

(00:18:22.362):
to be having cash coming in where you know and then if I don't

(00:18:25.626):
and everyone else seems to be saying that it's working.

(00:18:28.290):
Instead of sharing that with others,

(00:18:30.593):
which again,

(00:18:31.615):
when we put things into the light,

(00:18:32.937):
shame dissipates.

(00:18:34.139):
But when we keep it internal in the dark, it grows.

(00:18:37.403):
And we start thinking, it's me.

(00:18:39.266):
I'm the problem.

(00:18:40.127):
I'm the one

(00:18:40.548):
Who's wrong?

(00:18:41.188):
I'm bad.

(00:18:42.148):
Why can't I figure this out?

(00:18:43.249):
And they all can.

(00:18:44.329):
And it might be because you don't need a funnel.

(00:18:46.570):
Maybe you don't need that funnel.

(00:18:48.090):
Maybe your business marketing looks completely different.

(00:18:51.311):
I don't use funnels.

(00:18:52.871):
I meet with people.

(00:18:53.711):
My business looks like me getting on Zoom calls,

(00:18:57.252):
me reaching out to people individually that I think are just badass people.

(00:19:00.737):
on LinkedIn or on threads or wherever and then saying do you want to meet another

(00:19:05.120):
badass person because I swear I am and I'm not going to sell you a thing we get on

(00:19:08.182):
a call and we talk and like enough of that eventually people start to see my heart

(00:19:12.525):
they see how I show up and people refer me not because I had a perfect funnel but

(00:19:16.528):
because they're like this is a person that I actually think understands you and can

(00:19:20.651):
help you in that way it's a different approach but it's not sexy that's not a sexy

(00:19:24.353):
thing to sell you know

(00:19:27.088):
I think it's sexy but I well we both think it's real sexy Amelia it's kind of our

(00:19:31.933):
kink but it's not for everybody no absolutely I think you know my beef with funnels

(00:19:39.822):
is not about the customer journey like I actually think many of us could use to do

(00:19:44.968):
more customer journey work because I believe like

(00:19:48.462):
If you want people to feel like they're in good hands with you,

(00:19:51.303):
part of that is having that clarity,

(00:19:54.265):
is being able to guide people through the process of building the custom package or

(00:19:58.887):
figuring out what's really needed.

(00:20:00.508):
I think that is an important part of our work.

(00:20:02.709):
But I want to say despise.

(00:20:06.411):
That's a strong word, but I do feel this way about funnels that are heavily

(00:20:11.020):
Tripwired and urgency focused and countdown timered like the playbook for so many

(00:20:19.272):
of the funnels the way it's taught is the method like I hate it and if I happen

(00:20:24.981):
into someone's world

(00:20:26.242):
and I sign up for their newsletter and I get dropped into a funnel and I realize

(00:20:30.545):
what's happening,

(00:20:31.786):
it immediately warps my opinion of them.

(00:20:36.349):
I'm like, absolutely not.

(00:20:37.430):
I don't want to do this with you.

(00:20:38.391):
I am not interested in this type of interaction.

(00:20:42.093):
And that said,

(00:20:43.633):
I understand that not everyone's business can be about getting on a one-on-one call

(00:20:47.235):
all the time right I think you know if your business is operating in a certain

(00:20:51.217):
scale that's not necessarily possible either and so we have to find this in between

(00:20:55.980):
and I think the reality is most of us are doing an in-between but then we just feel

(00:21:00.922):
bad about it we're like well I'm not good enough at the whole traditional funnel

(00:21:06.145):
model but I'm also not like on no calls I have and it just like

(00:21:10.518):
again, it's that trap that you're talking about.

(00:21:12.161):
It's like,

(00:21:12.502):
if there isn't this sort of clear path and we're not following the prescribed path,

(00:21:16.308):
we internalize that as failure.

(00:21:17.871):
And that is once again, a

(00:21:20.400):
part of this broken system.

(00:21:21.980):
So thank you for laying so much of that out for us.

(00:21:24.301):
And really quickly, I used to do countdown timers and stuff too.

(00:21:27.002):
Like I used to do all of the things.

(00:21:28.902):
I had a real tripped out fancy funnel and it didn't work for me.

(00:21:32.923):
And it didn't work because one,

(00:21:33.964):
it wasn't what,

(00:21:35.124):
it isn't how I like to show up in the world and it really wasn't designed for my

(00:21:40.205):
client base and my work.

(00:21:41.966):
That said,

(00:21:43.426):
When I sign up for a certain retailer that I love and they send me something and I

(00:21:49.551):
know that this is a genuine sale.

(00:21:51.553):
It's not like, because first of all, my timers were all BS.

(00:21:54.356):
It was just like I would pick a date, right?

(00:21:56.598):
How many seats I had, that wasn't true.

(00:21:58.139):
It was just like, please, if I look like I only have two seats, you're going to take action.

(00:22:01.382):
All the stuff,

(00:22:01.962):
the manipulative stuff that I used to do that was taught as not bad,

(00:22:06.326):
but as best practice.

(00:22:07.987):
But when I get it from a retailer and I know,

(00:22:10.408):
no,

(00:22:10.508):
they actually are like this,

(00:22:11.448):
they're discontinuing this product and I have this much time,

(00:22:13.829):
then I'm grateful,

(00:22:14.689):
right?

(00:22:15.109):
Because now you're telling me something that's actually helping me and it's real.

(00:22:18.911):
So that's like,

(00:22:19.671):
yeah,

(00:22:19.891):
it's about,

(00:22:20.851):
it's not that something,

(00:22:21.931):
anything is right or wrong or good or bad necessarily.

(00:22:25.473):
It's about figuring out what's actually right and wrong for you.

(00:22:28.594):
First and foremost is the person who does the work.

(00:22:31.274):
And then also for those you're trying to serve.

(00:22:34.635):
Yeah, absolutely.

(00:22:35.816):
It's like,

(00:22:36.826):
Some of these strategies can be neutral in and of themselves,

(00:22:40.670):
but how they're deployed can be highly manipulative.

(00:22:43.393):
Exactly.

(00:22:44.214):
And what you just spoke to,

(00:22:45.135):
like a really basic test you can ask yourself is like,

(00:22:49.639):
am I lying actually?

(00:22:53.034):
Is this deadline actually false?

(00:22:54.675):
Am I actually closing the doors?

(00:22:56.556):
It's kind of like the people who every time they sell the class,

(00:22:59.698):
they're like,

(00:23:00.038):
this is the last time I'm doing the class.

(00:23:02.060):
And then you realize they've said that for six times.

(00:23:04.281):
It's like the Eagles and their farewell tours.

(00:23:06.662):
At some point you're like, Eagles, we don't believe you.

(00:23:09.664):
You're going to have another one.

(00:23:10.865):
We've said farewell many, many times.

(00:23:12.486):
It's sort of like a Midwestern house party.

(00:23:15.548):
They're just like circling the block saying goodbye over and over and over again.

(00:23:19.530):
And they never actually leave.

(00:23:21.507):
um yeah very real very real but yes just like is it true is a helpful litmus test

(00:23:27.391):
to start with with many of these claims and then like from that point when people

(00:23:33.916):
are teaching strategies just being discerning what feels honest to you and how will

(00:23:38.099):
that work in your business so the last question I wanted to ask you we've already

(00:23:42.381):
sort of led us to the community question that I have but

(00:23:48.968):
I really want to ask you about this because I think that probably what I admire

(00:23:53.750):
most about you and the space that you hold in online business is your incredibly

(00:23:59.492):
deep community-centered approach to everything you do.

(00:24:03.233):
The way I see it, you literally do everything in collaboration with or for other people.

(00:24:10.335):
you host the Feminist Podcasters Collective you co-host multiple podcasts you have

(00:24:16.817):
Feminist Founders is co-founded like you are always deep in community praxis so I

(00:24:23.779):
wanted to ask you if you could just talk about some of your collaborative projects

(00:24:27.200):
and why is this community first ethos so important to you and in fact in the book

(00:24:32.202):
you call it a rebellion so why is it rebellious yeah

(00:24:35.705):
Well,

(00:24:36.425):
before I even go there,

(00:24:37.205):
first of all,

(00:24:37.946):
I am on the scale of introversion to extroversion,

(00:24:40.906):
extroversion being over here,

(00:24:42.086):
I am pressing the wall as hard as you can against introversion.

(00:24:45.607):
And people often don't believe that about me because I am so involved in like

(00:24:48.808):
community,

(00:24:50.028):
space community,

(00:24:50.708):
organizing,

(00:24:51.349):
being with others.

(00:24:52.469):
The truth is, I love isolation.

(00:24:54.649):
I love myself and I love solitude and I

(00:24:58.439):
could go a very shockingly long time without ever speaking to another human.

(00:25:02.343):
And I would probably be okay, but that doesn't make it really right.

(00:25:06.427):
And not the world I actually wanna be a part of creating.

(00:25:09.290):
I think that collectivism on the whole is so important.

(00:25:14.656):
And when I think about how we actually implement the changes I want to see in the world,

(00:25:19.100):
They cannot happen at an individual level.

(00:25:21.843):
They can't happen by individuals.

(00:25:23.966):
They can't happen with me being very happy in my solitude.

(00:25:27.770):
It has to be a collective effort.

(00:25:29.932):
And I can't wait until the revolution to walk up and be like,

(00:25:34.938):
all right,

(00:25:35.178):
guys,

(00:25:35.519):
what are we doing?

(00:25:36.119):
Like, let's, you know, like some people can and that's fine.

(00:25:38.282):
We're going to need those people too.

(00:25:39.843):
But the truth is we need to have our communities in place before we get to that point, right?

(00:25:44.047):
Like we want to have collective experiences that all point along the way because

(00:25:49.271):
it's what actually creates change.

(00:25:51.433):
It's what makes meaningful difference in people's lives.

(00:25:53.835):
I guess going back to like me being in solitude,

(00:25:55.676):
another piece of that is I also have a lot of privilege.

(00:25:57.678):
There's a lot of privilege that allows me to be in solitude.

(00:26:00.680):
And just because I can and I could be fine and happy with that,

(00:26:03.222):
there are as many people that can't.

(00:26:05.004):
And I feel like there's also this responsibility as a human...

(00:26:09.087):
not just a human who's privileged that too but just as a human I feel like we have

(00:26:12.748):
this responsibility that if we say we want a human centered a human first world

(00:26:17.929):
then we have to model that for ourselves as well as for others just in how we show

(00:26:23.291):
up so could I be happy all alone in the middle of the woods probably I think I'd be

(00:26:27.472):
all right for quite a long time

(00:26:29.199):
But that wouldn't be creating the world I actually think that we want and in the

(00:26:33.422):
way that I think we have to get there.

(00:26:35.263):
And so like I think every time we reject the idea that we are individuals and

(00:26:41.447):
having an individual world,

(00:26:42.887):
we are rebelling against the system because the system needs us to be hyper

(00:26:47.810):
individualized.

(00:26:48.391):
That's why we've been sold this American dream.

(00:26:50.667):
that's why we've been told about this whole like pull yourself up by your

(00:26:53.289):
bootstraps you know the idea that of the self-made millionaire self-made

(00:26:57.531):
billionaire all of the lies and all of those things are lies no one can become a

(00:27:02.534):
billionaire or even a millionaire on their own there are people involved I don't

(00:27:07.677):
care if you're Taylor Swift I know Swifties I love her it's fine

(00:27:11.623):
But she didn't do it on her own.

(00:27:12.884):
There were people who helped her record.

(00:27:14.546):
There are people who help her market.

(00:27:15.787):
There are people who are, you know, pulling down the sodas and the beers at the concert halls.

(00:27:19.932):
Like no one gets becomes wealthy on their own.

(00:27:23.695):
We can't do anything on our own.

(00:27:25.878):
No meaningful change happens on our own.

(00:27:27.599):
But they want us to believe that because the more we stay individually siloed,

(00:27:30.803):
the less we recognize the

(00:27:32.364):
the pain and distress and the needs of other humans.

(00:27:36.065):
And then we get activated.

(00:27:37.546):
When we're sitting alone, just watch, you know, numbing ourselves with Netflix all the time.

(00:27:40.507):
And believe me, I do it.

(00:27:41.267):
So I'm not like, this is not a moral judgment.

(00:27:43.508):
I love my Netflix too.

(00:27:46.089):
I just watched The Crash.

(00:27:47.169):
I'm here to talk about it with people.

(00:27:48.830):
But the more we do that and the less we actually remember, oh, that's right.

(00:27:52.831):
We're all humans doing human-ing things.

(00:27:54.952):
Then the less we are to fight.

(00:27:55.972):
We're not going to fight.

(00:27:57.072):
We aren't going to say, hey, this isn't okay.

(00:27:59.812):
like you know I have a very real example i'm living in right now,

(00:28:02.916):
where a child in my kids school was I have to be careful for legal reasons,

(00:28:10.104):
he was harmed by an educator in the building a black boy a white adult educator who

(00:28:16.232):
caused heart very real harm to him.

(00:28:20.056):
And our school community,

(00:28:21.837):
most certainly the power,

(00:28:23.359):
the system that's at play,

(00:28:24.900):
which is the district,

(00:28:26.281):
is doing all in its power to not only not help him,

(00:28:28.743):
but to make sure that he is discredited,

(00:28:32.725):
his mother's discredited,

(00:28:33.486):
the story doesn't happen,

(00:28:34.387):
right?

(00:28:35.427):
She's left trying to fight a very big system on her own.

(00:28:40.111):
And my kid's fine.

(00:28:42.132):
My kid's always going to be fine at school.

(00:28:43.313):
He's white.

(00:28:44.254):
He's smart.

(00:28:45.435):
He's friendly.

(00:28:46.496):
He doesn't have any issues.

(00:28:47.496):
I could easily...

(00:28:49.765):
sit in my room and be like, oh man, that's really unfortunate.

(00:28:52.926):
I really feel for her.

(00:28:53.686):
That's really sad.

(00:28:55.026):
And that's what I'm discovering 99.99% of white people want to do because I've been

(00:29:02.208):
actively helping her and I am learning that collective,

(00:29:05.789):
this is why it's a rebellion because it is challenging.

(00:29:08.990):
I'm losing friends.

(00:29:10.630):
I'm gaining a reputation.

(00:29:12.251):
I'm being gossiped about.

(00:29:13.351):
I am being dismissed.

(00:29:15.191):
I am being silenced.

(00:29:16.172):
All the things are happening

(00:29:17.811):
because I'm choosing to stand with this person and I don't have to.

(00:29:22.318):
And this is not,

(00:29:23.580):
to be clear,

(00:29:23.940):
I'm not trying to make this about like me,

(00:29:26.183):
but to say this is why collective action matters because they want us to be

(00:29:30.830):
individuals.

(00:29:31.331):
They want us to see the bad things

(00:29:33.073):
and then say like, oh, it sucks for them.

(00:29:34.654):
Now let me go back to my Netflix show.

(00:29:36.415):
When we actually create communities and we make people into people for ourselves,

(00:29:40.556):
when we spend time with them and we see their hearts and we know them and they've

(00:29:44.278):
told us about their kids and then we learn about these things,

(00:29:46.619):
we are far more likely to say,

(00:29:48.399):
hey,

(00:29:49.200):
big old school district with millions of dollars,

(00:29:51.261):
this isn't okay and we're not gonna let you use your power to stop,

(00:29:54.122):
to silence us,

(00:29:55.082):
right?

(00:29:56.083):
It's easier for them to silence her.

(00:29:58.524):
It's not as easy, but still easy for them to silence her and I.

(00:30:02.172):
but the more people that begin to stand up, the harder it is for them to say no, right?

(00:30:06.394):
And that is indicative of all parts of our business and like the ways that we use

(00:30:10.376):
our voice to say,

(00:30:11.557):
hey,

(00:30:11.777):
Stephanie Graham,

(00:30:12.637):
you probably haven't heard about her because her voice doesn't get,

(00:30:16.619):
isn't amplified in the way that my voice is.

(00:30:19.320):
Just because I'm a white woman,

(00:30:21.081):
I get a platform more and I get to speak louder and people hear me.

(00:30:24.223):
But I'm gonna tell you about the amazing thing Stephanie does.

(00:30:26.644):
Like if you give a shit about art, like you should be paying attention to Stephanie.

(00:30:29.265):
She's amazing and she's showing you

(00:30:30.906):
and people doing cool things.

(00:30:32.167):
Same with Kevin.

(00:30:32.988):
Kevin Chung,

(00:30:33.829):
who's awesome and he's telling you about writers and like introducing you to

(00:30:37.372):
writers and he's using his platform in that same way to say,

(00:30:39.955):
here are people whose books you'll never know about,

(00:30:42.517):
right?

(00:30:42.757):
Because their voices don't get amplified.

(00:30:44.219):
Stephanie is saying,

(00:30:44.799):
here's artists you might not know about because their voices don't get amplified.

(00:30:48.663):
That is what it looks like.

(00:30:50.985):
That's what community looks like.

(00:30:52.066):
It's what collective action looks like and why it has to be a part of liberation.

(00:30:57.501):
It just it has to be even if you enjoy being alone like I do.

(00:31:02.843):
I rambled a bit Amelia, but I hope that got to it.

(00:31:05.884):
No, that was that was great.

(00:31:07.325):
Thank you so much for sharing both like personal examples that you're living

(00:31:11.126):
through right now and for shouting out our amazing friends.

(00:31:15.047):
Offer listeners, interwebers, Stephanie and Kevin, you're the best drop your links in the chat.

(00:31:19.898):
and I only shouted them out because I happen to know them all because they're in

(00:31:22.219):
the podcast collective.

(00:31:23.079):
So I've gotten to know them over time because we're in community together again, right?

(00:31:26.980):
Like, and they're in your community.

(00:31:28.380):
I've been able to meet people through that.

(00:31:29.920):
So that's,

(00:31:30.301):
you know,

(00:31:30.621):
I wouldn't know these people to be able to shout them out if we weren't spending

(00:31:33.061):
time in community.

(00:31:34.061):
It's why it matters.

(00:31:36.102):
And I know you know that because you're amazing at it too.

(00:31:38.943):
Yeah, I think that

(00:31:41.248):
people are everything.

(00:31:42.649):
And that one, it's just like a great way to be a human, but also it helps you build a business.

(00:31:47.591):
There are so many reasons to step into relationship.

(00:31:51.053):
And I also like you take very seriously that my platform,

(00:31:56.215):
you know,

(00:31:56.415):
especially once you're more established,

(00:31:59.336):
like I feel like off the grid has is certainly not a famous giant podcast at all.

(00:32:04.739):
But you have some fans like it's known in the space.

(00:32:09.801):
And so then my job like

(00:32:11.590):
People always ask me, why don't I do more solo episodes?

(00:32:14.131):
Why is it all interviews?

(00:32:14.911):
And I'm like, because it's not just for me.

(00:32:17.131):
The show is not just for me and my thoughts.

(00:32:19.132):
It's for all of us.

(00:32:20.152):
And I see that amplification work as one of the only purposes of visibility at this

(00:32:26.114):
stage is to spread the word and rising tides,

(00:32:29.835):
lift all boats,

(00:32:30.455):
et cetera,

(00:32:30.935):
et cetera.

(00:32:31.595):
So I want to sort of softly transition us into the open Q&A

(00:32:40.482):
and to help us avoid the moment where like the two people talking,

(00:32:44.725):
stop talking,

(00:32:45.326):
and then they're like,

(00:32:45.946):
does anyone have questions?

(00:32:47.027):
And no one has questions.

(00:32:48.528):
I have a little mini activity for us to transition us into question time.

(00:32:52.411):
So folks,

(00:32:52.952):
if you have just been listening or you wandered away from your computer and you

(00:32:56.274):
want to come back and kind of join us in conversation for our last 20 minutes,

(00:33:00.198):
this is your

(00:33:01.273):
Invitation to do that and the way that we're going to ease into that is actually

(00:33:06.119):
using a beautiful resource that Becky made alongside her book so Alongside the book

(00:33:12.226):
if you purchase one of the bundles you can also get this beautiful deck of liberate

(00:33:17.112):
your business reflection cards

(00:33:19.965):
and I pulled a few cards that I felt really relevant,

(00:33:23.506):
but the one that just feels like it's where we just landed is the card for

(00:33:27.627):
community holds me,

(00:33:28.988):
I am interdependent.

(00:33:30.168):
And so on one side of the cards,

(00:33:31.829):
there are these like beautiful affirmations or value statements.

(00:33:35.270):
And then on the other, we have reframes, reflections and refrains.

(00:33:40.331):
So I'm going to read us the reframe and then I'm going to offer a reflection

(00:33:45.513):
question and let everyone know

(00:33:47.473):
Reflect for a moment and sort of think about this prompt and then we'll move into

(00:33:52.894):
Q&A from there.

(00:33:53.814):
Maybe this will spur some questions you want to ask Becky or myself.

(00:33:57.495):
So with the principle community holds me, I am interdependent.

(00:34:02.156):
The reframe that Becky offers is this.

(00:34:05.417):
Doing it alone is celebrated.

(00:34:07.797):
Asking for help is discouraged.

(00:34:10.278):
I flip that script.

(00:34:13.070):
so the reflection question here and I'll type it in the chat as well we'll take two

(00:34:16.432):
minutes with this here's the question where am I trying to carry something that was

(00:34:21.634):
never meant to be carried alone so let me put that in the chat even hearing the

(00:34:29.458):
it's so funny because I'm reading the audiobook right now slowly but surely for

(00:34:32.720):
people who bought bundles and just rereading the book there are moments and I just

(00:34:37.202):
have it again and so weird as an author to say this because it feels a little

(00:34:40.344):
self-indulgent but like I just have those moments where I'm like

(00:34:43.447):
oh yeah like and I need that thank you I need the reminder too yeah it's so true so

(00:34:49.689):
with this question where am I trying to carry something that was never meant to be

(00:34:54.031):
carried alone we'll just take one moment of quiet here for folks to reflect you can

(00:34:59.072):
sit with this question you can stretch with it you can journal with it we'll have

(00:35:03.674):
one moment to pause with this question and then we'll move into Q&A

(00:36:31.293):
All right,

(00:36:31.654):
I know that's a big question for one and a half minutes of reflection time but

(00:36:37.441):
folks if you'd like to share anything in the chat feel free to drop in let us know

(00:36:42.366):
what you're trying to carry that wasn't meant to be carried alone.

(00:36:45.914):
For the third part of these cards, the reframe, the reflection, then the refrain.

(00:36:49.997):
The refrain here is I reject the myth of self-sufficiency,

(00:36:54.940):
which feels really powerful here,

(00:36:58.323):
especially in a community gathering like this.

(00:37:01.004):
So I'd love to move into Q&A.

(00:37:03.386):
We have about 10 minutes to do that, and then we'll wrap up.

(00:37:07.569):
So I'm going to unspotlight Becky and I so we can see everyone.

(00:37:14.118):
and then I'd love to make space for questions you can ask Becky anything about the

(00:37:17.621):
book about her business you can ask me questions about anything you'd like and I'll

(00:37:23.725):
just pause here and see if anyone feel free to raise your hand and unmute or if you

(00:37:29.349):
want to put a question in the chat I will read it aloud for us

(00:38:01.757):
I think I was typing and then I'm just unmuting.

(00:38:04.778):
I decided it was taking a really long time to type.

(00:38:08.879):
I mean, the thing, I invited a friend to come to today's session.

(00:38:14.021):
So thank you so much to both of you.

(00:38:15.722):
And we're gonna have coffee after this and chat.

(00:38:18.223):
So I'm so excited.

(00:38:19.223):
But yeah,

(00:38:20.243):
the thing that we were talking about ahead of the call is,

(00:38:24.085):
like I mentioned in the comments,

(00:38:25.565):
I run my business really intuitively.

(00:38:27.326):
I work primarily with plus size women around ending weight stigma

(00:38:32.042):
and I'm a plus size woman too.

(00:38:33.483):
So it's like,

(00:38:33.984):
I think a lot of my intuition is like data that kind of is just being filtered into

(00:38:39.949):
what feels right and what feels wrong.

(00:38:41.610):
Like I recently offered a product that I really urgently wanted to offer and I got

(00:38:46.714):
a lot of feedback from primarily white thin practitioner friends.

(00:38:52.236):
who are like,

(00:38:52.876):
what did you,

(00:38:53.477):
they're like,

(00:38:54.317):
they're like,

(00:38:55.017):
it was almost like they were scandalized by the price point.

(00:38:58.739):
Like they were horrified by like how they, how low they believed it to be.

(00:39:03.301):
And I just was like, I just, I'm like, I don't wanna spend a thousand hours on sales calls.

(00:39:08.883):
Like I have,

(00:39:09.263):
if I have a thousand hours,

(00:39:11.404):
if I'm spending a thousand,

(00:39:12.724):
I'm like,

(00:39:13.205):
if I'm spending a thousand hours,

(00:39:14.685):
I'm a very prolific person too.

(00:39:16.466):
So I'm like, I'm gonna do 12 projects in a thousand hours or a hundred hours.

(00:39:22.341):
and that's how I like to operate and so it's just I feel this incredible judgment

(00:39:27.965):
about pricing and it's typically from like thin white practitioners and I just it's

(00:39:33.429):
like it's like this thing that I can't get off my back and I feel like I'm a little

(00:39:36.731):
bit like seeking permission to just price the way that I want so I'm curious about

(00:39:43.136):
if either of you have thoughts on that permission granted

(00:39:49.665):
I know that's not probably really what you want but absolutely but I will say like

(00:39:53.246):
there's there's a Q&A with Jacquette Timmons in the book about money about pricing

(00:39:59.527):
and this whole you know price what you're worth and all of that stuff and I loved I

(00:40:05.749):
just like it still will sit with me where I'm like oh god the weight of what she

(00:40:09.690):
was saying about how harmful those kinds of words are to people for whom

(00:40:14.626):
their literal worth of their bodies and their families had a literal price tag on it.

(00:40:22.095):
And I just think when we think about that sort of thing, to me, nothing is prescriptive.

(00:40:30.062):
Nothing.

(00:40:30.902):
There are no rules that we have to follow.

(00:40:33.343):
You get to price in a way that feels right for you.

(00:40:35.444):
I do equitable pricing on everything that I'm able to.

(00:40:38.706):
Unless it's a direct one-on-one.

(00:40:40.066):
And even sometimes then.

(00:40:41.727):
I mean, really, I look at who do I want to help and how.

(00:40:46.189):
And then I put guides for what I charge.

(00:40:49.230):
But I will always have conversations with people to say,

(00:40:51.951):
if price is the only thing holding you back,

(00:40:53.472):
let's talk.

(00:40:54.372):
Because if someone's really committed,

(00:40:55.633):
in my life and yours too,

(00:40:56.873):
it sounds like,

(00:40:57.493):
because the work you're doing is about

(00:40:59.733):
It's impact making,

(00:41:01.015):
it's changing,

(00:41:01.895):
it's transformational,

(00:41:02.937):
not just for the person,

(00:41:03.858):
but for the systems.

(00:41:06):
And if we have people who are actually wanting to truly show themselves as being

(00:41:09.884):
invested in the work,

(00:41:11.226):
and the thing that's holding them back is money,

(00:41:12.827):
for me,

(00:41:13.588):
I'm like,

(00:41:14.829):
then let's figure that part out.

(00:41:15.951):
That part's figureoutable, to quote Marie Forleo, who's not my favorite.

(00:41:20.751):
so I shouldn't have used that but that part is figureoutable right so we can and we

(00:41:24.633):
can do that we and we like I just think too why are we our own bosses why are we

(00:41:29.174):
running our own businesses if we aren't giving ourselves the freedom to say I get

(00:41:32.376):
to do this my way and that's that's it like that's the period at the end of the

(00:41:36.497):
sentence like my way is okay if that is the way that feels good to me it allows me

(00:41:41.339):
to be in alignment with my values to show up how I want to show up and pay my bills

(00:41:46.315):
Feed my family right like so I'm not saying doing it at the expense of yourself

(00:41:49.638):
that should not be the case ever we have to care for ourselves but if you can do it

(00:41:53.482):
in a way that allows you to care for yourself for your your life your family and

(00:41:57.225):
all that and bring more people into the work and it makes you feel good because you

(00:42:00.768):
were able to do that then from me anyway it's a permission granted I don't know

(00:42:08.335):
about you Amelia how you feel about it yeah no I think that's all really beautiful

(00:42:12.119):
and

(00:42:13.123):
For what it's worth, Virgie, I can somewhat relate.

(00:42:15.144):
I'm often told my offerings are underpriced and I disagree.

(00:42:22.948):
I've definitely had even people I would consider friends be like, do you have a limiting belief?

(00:42:28.150):
I think there's a worthiness wound here.

(00:42:31.151):
I use that language from people.

(00:42:39.455):
But you know what?

(00:42:40.155):
To me...

(00:42:42.153):
My guiding question for pricing,

(00:42:43.974):
and the reason I've never made a pricing episode of my podcast is because the only

(00:42:47.496):
question I tend to ask myself is,

(00:42:50.397):
at what price would this sell effortlessly?

(00:42:52.738):
Because that's how much effort I want to put into sales.

(00:42:56.300):
Like you said, Virgie, I don't like being on sales calls.

(00:42:59.261):
I am allergic to feeling like I'm convincing someone to buy from me.

(00:43:03.643):
I want it to feel effortless.

(00:43:05.184):
And

(00:43:05.344):
and I don't think that has to mean I'm undervaluing.

(00:43:08.666):
It does mean I don't do certain types of work.

(00:43:10.688):
I don't currently offer one-on-one containers because they always feel draining and hard to me.

(00:43:15.531):
People ask for them all the time.

(00:43:16.992):
I say no because I can't figure out the exchange and the price and all of that.

(00:43:21.511):
um so i don't think i'm undervaluing myself i just have like the right size of

(00:43:25.833):
container at a price point that feels to me effortless to sell and sells you know

(00:43:32.097):
enough so it must feel enough that way to other people as well so those kind of

(00:43:36.459):
words like effortless enough you know i'm sure there are things i could do that i

(00:43:41.662):
would you know make twice as much money but i just don't want to do them so that

(00:43:45.123):
goes back to becky's piece but now i'm really with you like

(00:43:49.132):
I think that other people will get all up in their feelings about our pricing sometimes and

(00:43:56.322):
you know I don't even actually make the claim that mine is an accessibility thing

(00:43:59.825):
it's just it's like what feels good to me and yes I notice it is lower than other

(00:44:04.209):
people in the space but I just don't think that's my business or my problem so and

(00:44:10.114):
I pay higher prices than I charge for stuff too right like I'm not saying like oh

(00:44:14.678):
your prices should be lower I'm just saying like this is what I feel comfortable

(00:44:18.381):
charging so

(00:44:20.373):
yeah and you know that's a piece of it so thank you for that question I think it's

(00:44:24.075):
important there's so many just like layers there right and um I'm really hearing

(00:44:29.579):
you on like what people throw at us when they're like projecting onto what we're

(00:44:33.822):
doing in our business for sure um I saw a few other questions for Becky that I

(00:44:38.565):
wanted to um bring in here as well so Paula asked

(00:44:42.875):
I think when did your shift from the old way to the new way of doing business unfold?

(00:44:47.459):
Was it all at once?

(00:44:50.081):
No, definitely not.

(00:44:51.682):
No.

(00:44:51.943):
So I,

(00:44:52.863):
my personal journey around race,

(00:44:56.467):
like anti-racism work,

(00:44:59.309):
systemic work,

(00:45:00.870):
you know,

(00:45:01.631):
but looking at from through my own,

(00:45:03.492):
just like my personal life,

(00:45:05.314):
my relationships,

(00:45:06.615):
who I am and am not in community with those sorts of things started for me in 2014.

(00:45:10.578):
I was always

(00:45:11.546):
a good white liberal and always thought of myself as a feminist.

(00:45:14.967):
But I didn't really understand intersectionality or the truth to what I now see as

(00:45:19.769):
what feminism needs to look like to really be feminism.

(00:45:23.050):
Until 2014 when Michael Brown was murdered in Ferguson, a half a mile from where I live.

(00:45:27.491):
I talk about some of these things in the book too.

(00:45:28.932):
So if you read the book,

(00:45:29.832):
to learn more of my personal journey with all of these things.

(00:45:32.774):
But that was really the beginning of the unfolding of this new path forward for me

(00:45:37.777):
in saying that I want my work to be,

(00:45:39.338):
well,

(00:45:39.699):
that I want to be liberatory.

(00:45:40.999):
And then eventually there becomes this reckoning for most people where you realize,

(00:45:44.482):
wait a minute,

(00:45:44.882):
my work doesn't exist in a silo.

(00:45:47.143):
It's not separate from who I am.

(00:45:49.025):
It is very much a part of who I am.

(00:45:50.186):
So if I'm doing these things and saying this is who I am,

(00:45:52.567):
I need to figure out what it means to my business.

(00:45:54.408):
And so then that was sort of the next step of the work.

(00:45:57.050):
And so that eventually came along to where I was like,

(00:45:59.321):
okay,

(00:45:59.703):
I have to really start examining not only

(00:46:01.835):
Amelia Hruby,

(00:46:02.416):
PhD ameliahuby,

(00:46:03.016):
PhD ameliahuby,

(00:46:03.556):
PhD ameliahuby,

(00:46:03.897):
PhD ameliahuby,

(00:46:04.717):
PhD ameliahuby,

(00:46:05.198):
PhD ameliahuby,

(00:46:05.778):
PhD ameliahuby,

(00:46:06.699):
PhD ameliahuby,

(00:46:07.219):
PhD ameliahuby,

(00:46:08.060):
PhD ameliahuby,

(00:46:08.780):
PhD ameliahuby,